Jewish women talking about Torah and the lived experience of our Judaism.
(00:01:00) TC: Hello, I’m Tonia, and you are listening to Human and Holy, a podcast where we discuss the deepest parts of Torah. Not just as scholars, but also as human beings.
Today’s episode is sponsored by Malka Ackerman, and dedicated to her dear friend, Hindy Krinsky, Hinda Leah bas Menachem Mendel, whose yartzeit was in Elul. She writes, “I think about you when I strive for more, and own this awesome struggle of life.”
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In today's episode, we have Divi Bogart, who is an eating disorder and women's mental health specialist. A graduate of Yale College, a mother, and a woman who herself has wrestled with her own eating disorder for years. Today we discuss how we can utilize the Chassidic ideas of eskafia and eshapcha to transform the way that we approach food. How can we utilize eskafia in a way that does not starve us, but rather empowers us to approach food from a healthy place. And how can we experience the chassidic idea of eshapcha, transformation, in the way that we approach food, and ourselves.
Today, Divi shares her own story of eating disorder and recovery, as a human, a professional, and a Jew. Wherever you are in your journey with food, hold yourself gently as we dive deep into the healing and holiness that is available to us every time that we eat.
[Musical interlude]
[00:02:56] DB: Hi, I'm Divi. And I am a member of the Chabad community in New Haven. I'm a mother of four children. And I work in the mental health field. I work primarily with people who are struggling with some form of complex trauma and with eating disorders specifically.
TC: Nice. Okay, today we're going to talk a little bit about the overlap of eating disorders, and a very central idea in Chassidus, which is the two different modes of approaching our human selves, which is either eskafia or eshapcha. And I'd love if you could take a minute just to introduce us to what those terms mean and what their sources are within Chassidus.
[00:03:42] DB: Sure. So, eskafia and eshapcha, the two ways we can interface with the world. Eskafia is the idea of holding back, restraint. And eshapcha is the idea of engaging with, and transforming. These terms come up everywhere in Chassidus, in the Tanya, in Maamarim.
These terms take me back, really, to Bais Rivka High School. And very lively Tanya classes with Mrs. Glucowski. And really, a time in my life when we were very thirsty for Chassidus and very eager to implement it into our lives.
So, the idea of eskafia is one that was Illustrated to us with a lot of stories. For example, the story of the Chasid who would mix his cholent with the dessert so that he was assured that he was eating it for the sake of a holy purpose rather than for its taste.
And I want to be clear that we were told that we didn't have to take on that level of restraint. But we were still told these stories and they were endearing in a certain way. And, for those of us drawn to Chassidus in an intense way, we were curious, and we absorbed these messages, and we wanted to bring it into our lives.
[00:05:19] TC: How did that play out? Did you mix the cholent and then dessert? Or did you eat the cholent to begin with?
DB: So, I knew not to get ahead of myself. But, I did take on certain elements of this approach. For example, picking the food that I preferred less, or restraining myself for extra time. Staying hungry for another hour. And this will get personal very quickly and overlap with eating disorder recovery pretty evidently as you can probably see.
Because at that time in my life, it was confusing to me as to where this was coming from. I had struggled with, at that time in my life, restrictive eating patterns and really putting myself on a very restricted diet as part of an eating disorder. And so, in some ways, this gave me a really holy excuse to do this for spiritual reasons, or for spiritual development.
[00:06:30] TC: That's an interesting word, spiritual development. So, you took the message of how eskafia was historically practiced by Chasidim. And you took it to heart. And you began to restrict your eating to a certain extent. And how did that play out in your life? You mentioned that there's overlap there between eating disorder recovery. Did that quickly lead to a full-blown eating disorder? Or did it take time and you didn't, like, realize it happening at first? What was that process?
DB: I think I was introduced to these concepts really when I already had an eating disorder. Somehow, I was so open to these ideas and the excitement around their being part of Chassidus, really meshed with my eating disorder. I don't think they started the eating disorder at all. I think they combined with it and sort of gave it a certain extra power and legitimacy.
And really, that became more intense in seminary, when we were really immersing ourselves in Chassidus all day. And we were learning a particular maamer. I don't remember what it was. But it was all about eskafia. And so, I don't know that it was an intentional decision to really practice eskafia as much as something that really influenced my consciousness and the way I thought about the world.
[00:08:00] And it remains today a very powerful idea, right? Restraint and discipline. And I think it took a break from learning Chassidus, and really after seminary, delving into what was it going to take to actually fully recover from my eating disorder. For me to really, much more recently, revisit the power of eskafia and how to bring it back into my life in a way that's really empowering, rather than confining.
TC: Nice. Eskafia is actually an idea that seems to be somewhat built into our day. Even just the concept of making a bracha before you eat a food. So, It's not restraining yourself for an hour, but even for just five seconds while you pause and do something a little bit outside of yourself before eating. I like how you said, “Can you revisit eskafia from an empowering place and not a confining place?”
[00:09:03] DB: Yeah. I think if you think about eskafia and eshapcha at first, they may seem like opposites. Eskafia is holding back. And eshapcha is engaging with. But we understand that, in essence, these are two approaches to achieve the same thing, which is to create a Dira Bitachtonim, in Chasidus, right? Which is to work with the physical world in a way that elevates it.
And so, when we are working with the physical world to elevate it, we are elevating ourselves. We are part of the physical world, right? And how do we elevate ourselves? Through elevating our consciousness. At least in part.
[00:09:44] So, exactly what you're saying around the pause is that the eskafia, the restraint, is not about depriving yourself or withholding. It's about restraining yourself so you have a chance to breathe and pause and look at the mindset with which you are approaching food. And this applies not only to eating, but also to- many of us struggle with our relationship with our bodies.
So, the power to pause and reflect on what is the attitude, what is the mindset with which we are relating to our bodies, is empowering. And the same way many of us consciously or subconsciously in our culture, approach food with a deprivation mindset, like wouldn't it be nice if I could just not eat that? Wouldn't it be nice if I just didn't want that? Wouldn't it be nice if I could just have less?
It's similar with how we approach our bodies. Wouldn't it be nice if I could just drop a few pounds? Wouldn't it be nice if I was just smaller, or skinnier, or took up less space?
So, actually, this past Rosh Hashanah, I was for some reason really connecting with this idea of eskafia around taking accountability for exercising restraint around what we allow into our minds. Maybe because during Rosh Hashanah and the Yomim Noraim, we’re asking Hashem to judge us favorably. So, wouldn't that suggest we ought to judge ourselves favorably too?
[00:11:22] But often, we feel like we have to deal with everything that comes into our minds. Sometimes we want to examine. We want to work with our thoughts. And we want to get to the bottom of it and resolve it. But the eskafia gives an invitation to: sometimes it's okay to just not let it in. And I know that can sound overly simplistic. But I think there's a place for it. Of kind of being the gatekeepers on our consciousness and seeing it approach and saying, "This is very familiar. And it's not something I want to work with. It's something I want to invite to go in a different direction. I don't even want to let it in."
This was a level of eskafia that was coming up for me this year really experientially around, I think a good example is, maybe obsessional thoughts. While one approach might be: let me really examine this obsessional thought. Let me really get to the core of it. What emotion is behind it? Which can have its place.
I was connecting with this approach of: I've already examined this obsessional thought. And maybe my power here is I don't need to let it in. I can go in a different direction and I can kindly, but firmly, kind of close the door.
[00:12:42] TC: Oof. That is such a resonant way of explaining what eskafia is. I connected to that. Yeah, I like that. I like it as a way of examining what mindset we're bringing to something and using the opportunity to be fully intentional about how we're going to interact or how we're going to make our next move. Whether it be with what thoughts we're allowing into our minds. Or, what was the other example you gave at the beginning that I also really liked, other than thoughts?
DB: Maybe around approaching food with a mindset of nourishing ourselves rather than depriving ourselves.
TC: Yes. Exactly. That, like, we can – Yeah, go ahead.
[00:13:19] DB: I just want to speak to that because it's so important, because people often think that people who are restricting their eating, not eating enough, are depriving themselves. But people who are eating too much or struggle with binge eating are over indulging. And I just want to take this opportunity to challenge that and look at how beneath all of it, is a message of deprivation. Because if you tell a child they can't have something, then they can't get enough of it. Because however much they have, they still feel like they can't really have it. So they keep wanting more.
So whether it's binge eating or restricting, really working to uproot this mentality of deprivation from our systems. I think we absorb it for so many different reasons. Maybe American culture. Maybe some of it is the spiritual messages around needing to deprive ourselves physically to legitimize our spiritual development.
But for whatever reason, we, in this day and age, are not suffering from over-nourishment. We are suffering from being undernourished, maybe spiritually, emotionally and psychologically. This pause that we keep coming back to is an invitation to look within and see what would it take for me to take this food in with an attitude of wanting to nourish myself? Wanting myself to enjoy as much as possible? Wanting myself to not only not deprive myself, but enrich my experience. Really bring all of the five senses to the experience of eating.
I know for a long time that was very hard for me to do. Like, it felt indulgent. But then, of course, you realize that the more you enrich the experience of eating and the more you allow yourself to be present for it and take it in with all of your five senses, the more satisfying it is.
[00:15:13] TC: And then the less we think that if I think less about my food while I eat it, then I'm just not so focused on food. But I think the reality is, is that if we focus less on our food while we eat it, we're thinking about food all day. And if we focus on eating while we're eating, then we can go on and not think about food and do what we want to do within our own lives that are not related to food.
DB: Right. And even focusing on the experience of eating can be spiritual in nature, in the sense that I love what you said about the bracha. And I come back to the bracha as maybe one of the most underutilized Jewish practices because it's always available to us. And often, it's mumbo-jumbo. And it doesn't even grab our attention at all because we're so accustomed to it.
But the spirit of this practice is moving into a place of gratitude. Baruch Ata Hashem... like, we are thankful for having nourishment, which is not to be taken for granted because it wasn't always accessible to us and it isn't always available.
And the other component of the bracha is that it's reminding us, where does this food come from? What is its source? If we think about what it's actually saying, like Hamotzi lechem min Haaretz. It's bringing our attention back to the Earth. Like, this bread on our table actually comes from someone's handiwork, and from the earth, and from divine handiwork.
And so, if we can lean into that bracha, then when we are focusing on the food, it's not a callous attention on the physicality alone. It's really an appreciation for this physical act being an active unification and returning to source and bringing us to a place of gratefulness.
[00:17:05] TC: I can't even imagine how life-changing it would be to really experience our brachas like that
DB: Right. I mean, I was once told by someone that if we would be able to take a glass of water and say the bracha of shehakol with intention, like, "Thank you, Hashem, that everything was created with your word for my survival and nourishment." That we wouldn't need anything other than water. We wouldn't need alcohol or any other substance just to get us into an altered state of mind.
[00:17:41] And true of like bringing this back to our connection with our bodies. Because if we are connected with our bodies, then we have a vehicle through which we can take food in, in an open-hearted way. But the bracha we say when we come out of the bathroom, Asher Yatzar, if we look at what it's saying, it is so eye-opening. That every pore is open. And if it were closed, it wouldn't be compatible with life. And every barrier on our body is closed. And if it were to open, it wouldn't be compatible with life. And everything is in balance like that. The pores are open and the barriers are closed. And here we are breathing and standing.
So, just inviting us to also, when thinking about our relationship with food, really take accountability for how we are allowing our minds to relate to our bodies, because that's where this practice stems from. If we can catch ourselves when we are relating to our bodies in a way of deprivation, wanting it to be small. And noticing that. And then seeing if there's some way we can invite in an attitude of openness, and appreciation, gratitude, it's just such a powerful way to shift. Because it doesn't require us to negate the qualms we have with our body, and the parts we don't love or would like to see be different. But it invites something else in. And it just invites an attitude of gratefulness.
[00:19:12] TC: Oh, nice. I actually really like how you pinpointed that. That moment of pause when we make a bracha. What are we doing in that moment of pause? We're saying thank you to Hashem for the food that he's given us from the Earth. And that mindset of gratitude taking us into our experience of eating, is very powerful because it acknowledges how significant, and valuable, and worthy the experience of eating is in our lives.
And with that, I would love to ask you, What was it that took you from this place of restraint and restriction, which like you said, maybe it started before eskafia? But you called it eskafia and it gave you a nice way of explaining it to yourself. What was your process to changing the way you interacted with food so that you could have a healthy pause before food that was joyful and loving, and not hateful and damaging to your body?
[00:20:05] DB: Well, it was a long journey. And surprisingly, what comes to mind in response to that question is nature, and moving out of the city, and moving to Connecticut, and realizing that the world all around us is something we often overlook in our healing journeys. And spending time in the natural world. You know, the color green itself has antidepressant properties. And many times, we think of sophisticated ways we can work on our mental health. Like, EMDR, other fancy modalities, which can be great. And then we forget, what about our humanity?
TC: Going outside.
DB: And how we are not designed to exist in cubicles or behind computer screens. And I think that finding my own intuitive way of connecting with nature was really grounding. and movement. Moving outside or strength training really helped me connect with my body as a source of strength.
I think strength training for me was a turning point because it allowed me to use food as fuel. And while for some people, that can also become imbalanced. For me it was a really good step forward, that food is literally fuel. And even that intention of putting it in like you would put gas in a tank as a way of moving forward with your life.
[00:21:40] And speaking of working with clients or other people, thinking about food as energy is really helpful to them, because we get stuck on the physicality of it. But it's literally an energy source. If we're thinking about the source, like all food ultimately contains energy from the sun, right? Plants convert energy from the sun. And animals eat plants. And we eat both. And we're tapping into an energy source. And sometimes it's helpful.
I know at that time in my life I was very identified with my intellect. And so, remembering that your brain uses a huge amount of energy every day. And your brain, a large percentage of it, is made up of fat. Creating new associations, like, fat forms the myelin sheath that allow neurons to communicate. And food provides the energy that allows my brain to communicate with itself and with my body. These are some shifts. But I don't know that I could pinpoint really any one moment.
[00:22:47] TC: That is very powerful. Being able to see food as a source of energy that you could utilize.
I would love if you could speak a little bit about eshapcha, and how that is related to eshapcha. Because you did a beautiful job of explaining how eskafia could actually be a very positive force in our life and a beautiful idea to implement. Obviously, we're not taken to the extreme. And I would love if you could express how you perceive the role of eshapcha when it comes to our relationship with food and specifically people who really struggle with a negative relationship with food.
DB: At this point, it's like eshapcha is an extension of eskafia rather than its inverse. That through having the restraint and accountability to not be at the whim of our moment-to-moment impulses, then we have an opportunity to really approach with intention. And that's what eshapcha is all about. Part of what's so unique about working with eating disorders is that unlike other cycles of what we might look at as addictive behavior. Whereas with addiction, we can abstain and withhold. The 12-step style. We can go abstinence.
With eating disorders, we don't have that option, because we can't subsist on air and abstain from food. And it is a beautiful thing, because it forces us to say there has to be a better way. And I think this is true even with addiction. That in reality, true recovery is not necessarily about abstaining from the substance. Although that might have a place. But more so about how do we rework our relationship with this? Because if our relationship with it is still one of conflict, then we can keep ourselves away, keep ourselves away, keep ourselves away, but the pull is always there. So, it's always taking up energy in our system, that holding ourselves back.
But if we can go deeper, which here's this eshapcha, and we can say, "I don't want to just stay away. I want to rework my relationship with." And this is a really powerful idea, because it also applies not just to substances or food, but also to parts of ourselves.
Many of us have parts of ourselves that we don't particularly like. And so, we might take an approach of eskafia. I'm just going to ignore that part of myself. When the inner critic comes up, I'm just going to shut it up. Or when the insecure part of myself comes up, I'm just going to flood it with reassurance and tell it it doesn't know what it's talking about.
And these relationships we have with ourselves that are built on eskafia of like ignoring, dismissing, pushing away, avoiding parts of ourselves, they take up a lot of energy in our systems because we have to constantly be on guard and keep pushing away. Be on guard. Keep pushing away.
So, eshapcha is, just like with food, we can't stay away. So we have to transform our relationship with it. Within our own systems, we have an opportunity to say, "Hey, this inner critic, what does it actually have to say? How long has it actually been around? What did it evolve in response to?" And those questions are ways of opening up curiosity about it. And the purpose of this curiosity is to actually invite relationship with this part instead of pushing it away.
[00:26:29] And as we work with ourselves in that way, we of course recognize that these parts of ourselves, their intention is the same as ours and they are our allies. And this is the same way of looking at the world that Chassidus wants us to hold in mind. That the physical world is not in opposition to the G-dly world. And we have to stay removed from it to be spiritual warriors. But, no. The physical world is a manifestation of the very same intention, the same G-dly intention of unification. And we can be in relationship with. Eshapcha is all about being in relationship with, and doing transformative work with ourselves and the world.
[00:27:12] TC: That is such a gorgeous way of expressing it. Because in a broader way, you can't abstain from the world. You have to engage with the physical world.
And I love how you brought that parallel into food. That if someone is dealing with a food addiction, whatever it is, whether they're abstaining, or whether they're over indulging. Like you said, they all come from the same restrictive mindset. But there's no other option than to look deeper because you're going to have to interact with it. The only way to heal is to transform, in this case.
DB: Right. And I'd love to give a really practical example with binge eating because it seems very relatable. Where our intuitive approach might be “Just stop. Just have less.” The problem with that approach, which is more of maybe an eskafia approach, is that, by trying to have less, the desire becomes more as we try less. Try to have less, the desire becomes more.
So, eshapcha is this counter-intuitive approach of let me just continue to engage. But let me engage in a different way. So, sometimes with people I'm working with I might suggest, "Okay, so if you find yourself binging, what if you binged with other people around, so it wasn't a secretive thing?" Or if you find yourself binging alone, what if you binged and the whole time you said to yourself, "I'm giving myself permission to eat this. I'm giving myself permission to eat this."
Or what if when you felt the urge to binge, you just took a run around the block with the intention that if you still wanted to binge when you came home, you can absolutely have it. Or you came up with five activities that you're going to do first, but then fully allow yourself to binge after if you still want it. These are ways of, instead of pushing away, creating a new pattern around whatever you want to see a shift in. And in surrendering and not battling with, we allow for a new relationship with whatever it is that we want to see a shift in.
TC: Interesting.
[00:29:14] DB: This was a real turning point for me, I would say, because, generally, the pattern is, after many years of restricting, oftentimes it turns into binging or binging and purging. And I, again, can't pinpoint like one moment where I really took in that I'm allowed to eat what I want. And there were a lot of things that helped me. There were people, therapists. But I don't know that it happened in therapy per se. I think a lot of our healing happens in creative ways and intuitive ways. But if we continue to move forward with commitment, we kind of find our own solutions. So, at a certain point when it really sank in that well, like, I can have this, really, just a lot of the power dissipated.
[00:30:03] TC: Can you give any practical moments that happened where you saw that ability to shift and to transform the relationship?
DB: Yeah, I know there was a pivotal moment when I started to really allow myself to feel full physically again. It was like after years of deprivation and then deprivation and overdoing it. Like, I really didn't know what it meant to feel comfortably full anymore. The how is a little hard to identify. But I do believe that any erratic or self-destructive behavior. In IFS, we might call those the firefighters. The binge, it's a firefighter. There's an emotional fire, or some other conflict in the system. And the binge is fast, quick and creates some sort of reset. So, those are powerful parts of ourselves.
And so, they are not going to stop putting out fires. You're not going to stop binging to calm yourself if you don't have other ways to calm and self-soothe. There's a well-known therapeutic technique called the CARESS method. And CARESS stands for communicate alternatively, release endorphins, and self-soothe. And it encourages you to like put on a timer for 10 minutes. And when you're not feeling okay, communicate alternatively. So, maybe write a poem, or jot something down, or say something to someone near you about what you're going through. And release endorphins is recognizing that a lot of these behaviors, like binging, do release endogenous endorphins, our own painkillers. Releasing endorphins in a different way.
[00:31:43] I think the main ways that we release endorphins is through movement, like jumping jacks, getting our heart rate up, laughing. You can put on a comedy clip or find someone who makes you laugh. Touch, so hugging someone. Or if you have a baby, that helps. Or maybe even a teddy bear.
What else releases endorphins? Chocolate does release endorphins. So, you could try like a tea with dark – something slow. And there are some other things that release endorphins.
And then self-soothing. And self-soothing is maybe more of like the tea, or warm water, or moisturizer, or something calming, music. And so, the idea again is that you put on a 10-minute timer and you just say I'm going through these three steps. I'm communicating alternatively. I'm releasing endorphins. And I'm self-soothing. And if I still need to binge afterwards, it's okay.
There's no shortcut. When someone's system is destabilized, so they need to rely on extreme behaviors, they have a lot of work to do. Maybe they can heal overnight. But oftentimes, it's really commitment to the long haul of like this is a muscle I've practiced for a long time, this firefighter approach of binging, or starving, or whatever it is. And if I'm going to build other muscles, I'm going to have to walk into the gym and start with a five-pounder and a 10-pounder and really strengthen these other ways of being.
[00:33:11] I think a lot of people come to me as a mental health professional. And I do some work with ketamine. A lot of people come and they want, like, the glam thing. Ketamine assisted therapy, whatever it is that they have identified as the life-changing intervention. And it's great. Go for the innovative life-changing interventions.
But in the Tanya, there's the short long way and the long short way. I believe, with healing, there is no short way. There can be moments of transformation. But over time, it's a commitment to rebuilding yourself and building up what actually works. And strengthening the muscles of inner health, and well-being, and peace. And it takes commitment. And when you're not feeling the commitment, you need the people around you to rally and remind you of your commitment about coming back to our work, our inner work, our Avodah.
And I think a lot of people that I work with who don't have access to Chassidus. Like, in a way, growing up with Chassidus or having access to it, it's so intuitive to us this idea of Avodah, like inner work. Sometimes people are like, "What do you do in therapy for an hour?" It's like when we understand the concept of Avodah as like inner work, like this is creating a Dira Bitachtonim. Like marrying our mind and body is like a Dira Bitachtonim. We have an intuitive appreciation of what it means to commit to our own Avodah.
[00:34:36] TC: That's interesting, that it gives you the instinctive understanding of what that means to do the work, as people like to say. Even though I do not appreciate that phrase. But that would be the correct modern-day translation.
My question to you is that this term transformation, just right now as you were speaking, I had this niggling feeling inside of me that, is transformation truly possible? To be human to me seems like you will continuously come back often to the same struggles. Or even if they're different struggles, is it possible for someone to truly transform their relationship to anything so that they don't have their triggers around it anymore and they don't feel the desire to restrict, or to binge, or to do those things? Can we truly transform? First, I want to ask you about eating. And then I want to ask you also about just generally within the world. So, tell us about eating.
[00:35:28] DB: So, I am in some ways an unapologetic idealist, in many moments. And while I have my skeptical moments, I actually believe in transformation and full healing. Healing in a way that we are not in a battle with our urges to restrict binge, or our self-sabotaging impulses, or our self-berating voices. Like where we actually hear them out until they transform into loving, self-loving voices, or whatever it is that we'd like to see a transformation in.
And it's like one of these questions that is very humbling. Because as someone in my own recovery and somebody who works with people every day, there are moments that are magical. There are moments like, when in one session somebody actually releases a burden and leaves with more space in their system. Like holding their chin higher and they never look back.
And then there are other times when you can barely see anything, but there's like tiny, tiny shifts. And you just keep going, going, going. And like five years later, it comes together. So, maybe a word that comes to mind, more of a psychology word, is like closure.
Sometimes in our healing process we're opening things up. We're like going into the attic and opening up a dusty door and like doing work. And that moment when we have cleaned out this room and we close the door and we like breathe in, and we feel freer. It's like what actually allows that to happen? Sometimes it's something we've really worked for step-by-step and we expect it. And sometimes it almost comes out of nowhere. Kind of like a personal geulah, or Moshiach that just shows up.
And either way, whether it's a transformation or an incremental gain, they are both the product of our investment. We get out, you know, those who sow with tears will reap in joy. We get out what we put in. There's no way to get around that.
[00:37:38] TC: Would you say that the transformation is dependent on whatever system or habits the person puts in place to maintain that transformation? Or is it a transformation that's so deep that no matter what circumstances change in that person's life it would still be there?
DB: I like to say anything's possible. But in the world of therapy, there's a lot of talk about integration. And essentially, what we're saying is that if you don't put the pieces together, it's not going to hold. So, if you are going to find a healing modality, but you're coming home to a bed you can't sleep in, or to a relationship that's not working for you, you're going to be faced with the same challenges.
I think it's top-down and bottom-up. Top-down is we are really coming in to heal. And bottom-up, we are creating a structure in our lives and a foundation that works. That as we heal, we keep our feet grounded and we keep engaging with our lives in a way that practically works for us.
[00:38:42] TC: What would you say that would look like within a person's Yiddishkeit? Because I think that this idea can be so powerful translated into how someone experiences their Yiddishkeit. Today I was wondering, do we experience our Yiddishkeit at all on a daily basis? And could we transform ourselves so the Torah and our Yiddishkeit was like part of our personality. That we actually transformed our human selves so that we loved, desired, found joy, interest, wisdom naturally in the Torah in a completely intuitive, and like you said, integrated holistic way. What would it look like for someone to find the type of human transformation where they could experience, like, a real natural connection with the Torah that was part of their daily life?
DB: I guess my intuitive response to that is, with our connection with Hashem, we're going to be bumping up against this edge of our humanity. Because if we transformed into enlightened beings, we would be malachim.
[00:39:40] And so, the work, or the Avodah, is the striving. Like ratzoi v’shuv. There's this striving. And then the shuv is the physicality, brings us back down. And that can feel frustrating in kind of the human condition of perpetual striving and kind of getting almost there, but then not really reaching G-d. Having to wake up and make breakfast for our kids.
And we can see that as frustrating, but we can also see that as exactly the cycle of life that the divine intention has in store for us. So eshapcha, maybe in Chassidus, the true eshapcha is geulah. And so, if we invoke the hashgacha pratis of being here in galus, we are leaning heavily on eskafia and we're kind of touching eshapcha. Just kind of grasping at it.
But I think the transforming is really in the living. And the fact that we're continuously brought back to Earth and we have to go into the books to find spirituality through our minds is not a deficit. It's really where we're supposed to be. And I think that us accepting that is really liberating and just welcomes us to be in this process.
And I hope and pray to keep my own striving for higher, for G-dliness, for spirituality, that connection alive. Because we are so overwhelmed by demands and tasks. And we can just drown in it. And when there are moments when we are just fully immersed in what our financial lives and family lives are demanding of us, and we are able to reconnect and pray and reconnect with Hashem, like, it's so empowering. But the only way we're going to be able to do that in the moment is if we've really invested in our own connection.
I actually could give an example of – this week, I've been in a training that's IFS for psychedelic assisted therapy. And it was kind of an epiphany of a moment for me and it sounds a little spiritual. But essentially, I was the, role playing the therapist.
And role-playing a therapist in a modality you're not so comfortable with is always a little awkward, right? Because there was a real person who was being the client. And they were opening up real emotional material. And I was kind of feeling responsible for that. But I also didn't know what I was doing. So, I was just getting into my thinking brain of like, "Oh, my G-d. Maybe the preceptor should take over here."
So, my group, she's like, "Why don't we take a time out?" And just invited me to like, whatever I needed to do to just reconnect with myself. And we all went off-screen, the beauty of Zoom. We all went off-screen for like 60 seconds. And I almost had, like, a spiritual experience back there. I kind of just put my head down and I just prayed. And I was just reminding myself why I was there and that there was no point in me working with another human being if I wasn't connected to life and the source of life, Hashem. Because that is the vehicle through which healing happens.
When people come to a therapist, it's maybe important what the technique that they use is. But ultimately, there's a shared experience of humanity. And something greater happens in that shared experience. So, It was almost instantaneous. But it was so informed by my entire life. And in all of these hours that I spent as a kid, like, davening when I didn't know what I was doing. In that moment when I wanted to connect, it was all there.
[00:43:45] And we came back to the session, and I just felt a real difference. And the person I was working with just went into this really vulnerable place and like, just tears started to flow. And they were really able to rework something they had been holding for a long time. And this is just something this week that reminded me like, sometimes we think our connection is irrelevant. Like, what is this work anyway? What are we doing when we pray?
But it was like, there it was. It was like magic. Talk about eshapcha. Like, healing is an endeavor of eshapcha. We're not signing up to be in a perpetual battle of wills here, to teach people how to follow rules and abstain and keep themselves in check. Sometimes we need that along the way. But we're signing up to help people blossom, and open up, and have a transformed experience of life where they may go from being in perpetual pain to perpetual gratitude of like, wanting to wake up in the morning and living a life. Like Marshall Linehan who came up with DBT. Her memoir, Building a Life Worth Living. Talk about transformation for people to go from being on the brink of not making it to building a life worth living.
And that kind of transformation is only going to happen if we've been doing transformative work with ourselves. And we can extend that to the people we're working with.
[00:45:11] TC: That's such a beautiful moment that you experienced where you opened yourself up to Hashem working through you. And how you could feel that shift when you showed back up on the screen. I think that's so beautiful.
And just thinking about waking up the next morning and making breakfast for your children, I'm wondering if part of the transformation is recognizing the inherent G-dliness of that act and the meaning that's there instead of seeing it as separate.
[00:45:39] DB: Well, my husband makes breakfast for the children. And talking about my own journey, that's something I'm still working on. I took a long break from being in the kitchen for long periods of time cooking. And that's something I'd like to come back to. And thinking about ways that we can connect with food, something I preach, that preparing the food.
Like, as much as we can connect with the food in multi-faceted ways, it would be amazing if we could actually grow the food. But presuming we're not doing that. Maybe buying food from local farms. But just cooking the food is something that I preach and something that's very hard for me to do. That's a work in progress.
[00:51:50] TC: I would love to ask. Can you expound a little bit more on why you stepped out of the kitchen?
[00:46:32] DB: Yeah, I would say it's very related to my recovery in the sense that it was an unsafe place for me for a long time. And it can still be, triggering? Is the word I think we would use these days. And so, I would say for people listening in, practically, it's actually useful when you're struggling and working on rebuilding your relationship with food, to actually take the food, prepare it, but take it out of the kitchen and to a place that feels calm, and is designated as like a mindful eating place. That's one of the things.
Working with people that we work with right up front. Like, forget changing anything you're doing. It's just like, get the food on a beautiful plate, and like in a nice place where you feel good and calm and grounded. In the kitchen, it's like often we’re just moving around and kind of tasting things. And it's messy and chaotic.
So, actually, practically, one of the things I'm hoping to do is work on actually making my kitchen physically more a calmer space, like a more organized space. And so, I kind of did take a break to challenge myself less in that particular spot. But also, my husband's an amazing cook.
[00:53:37] TC: That helps. I say you cash in for as long as possible.
[00:48:02] DB: The funny thing is, when we first got married, for some reason in kallah classes, and like seminary, I thought I was supposed to cook all of the food. And I took that very literally. I would make these like amazing suppers the first, like, week we were married. I made challah like the first Shabbos. And like, my husband, like, wanted to come in the kitchen to cook. And I was like, "What are you doing here?"
And then like week two, I was like, "Wait, what am I doing here? My husband wants to cook." So, ever since then, he's been welcomed into the kitchen. And I sort of fled. So, we'll find some balance.
[00:48:39] TC: That's cute. Okay, ending off. What would be some practical tips that you could share for anyone who is specifically struggling either with a full-blown eating disorder or with just really negative habits around food? Restrictive feelings around food? Not being able to have the gratitude for nourishing their bodies? Not feeling like they can risk getting bigger when they eat? Things like that? What would be your advice on how to really integrate this eshapcha? This transformative relationship with food? How do we get there? What's the path?
DB: We're going to cover that in two minutes.
TC: Let's do it.
[00:49:21] DB: Well, I just want to say that anyone who is struggling with this, and is listening to this, and is committed to eshapcha, committed to shifting and transforming, that I really admire that. And it takes a lot of courage to really change our systems. Because we get into a status quo, and even if it's not ideal, it works in a certain way. And really being willing to say, "I want better for myself. I want to heal." Such a powerful starting point.
And there's so much that comes to mind. But I'm just going to invite people who are listening in to, whatever you are looking to shift, noticing that this perceived problem is not actually the problem. It is most definitely a solution that you have evolved to deal with something in your life. It is certainly contributed to you getting to this point.
And before you're looking to make any practical changes, just really opening yourself up to understanding, how has this contributed to my life? And appreciating it for what it does.
I mean, restricting binging, even purging, these are powerful ways to reset our emotions. Maybe they've helped people survive unfathomable circumstances. Like, let's give them a little respect because we're so quick to say like, "I want to get rid of you, binge, purge, restriction. I just want to get rid of you."
[00:50:51] Meanwhile, it's like been working for us. What do we think it evolved for? It's evolved for our own safety and protection. So, giving it some respect. And then really working on whatever is going to bring you into some sort of mindful eating. Whether it's something that has nothing to do with food. Like, spending time in nature. Whether it is preparing your own food and picking out things that you love and have colors and can enjoy with the five senses. And whether it is considering actually taking, saying a bracha with kavana seriously. Just when you make that bracha, just take a breath and connect with your lungs. And remember that every moment you breathe in and out in a cycle of life. And that food is just a part of that cycle of life.
I mean, the seed decomposes in the earth. And this plant grows. It becomes food. And it comes into our system. And it decomposes in our system so that it can permeate all of our cells and even our neurons and just give us this opportunity to see, hear, and smell, and taste, and love. And just really be creative with what you do with that pause.
TC: Oh, nice. You took that full circle. I saw that. You took that full circle. Transform the pause.
DB: That's right.
TC: This was so beautiful. Thank you, Divi, for your time, and for sharing about such a personal experience. I really appreciate it.
DB: Thank you so much.
[musical interlude]
[Outro]
[00:52:28] Some things you simply cannot stay away from, no matter how painful the interaction. Food is necessary for our survival, so either we suffer, or we transform.
Eshapcha, as Divi said, is about being in relationship with, but developing a new relationship that better serves us.
Whether you restrict yourself constantly. Whether you binge eat. Or simply have a loaded relationship with food. Can you put a cog in the system, that sets the wheel off? Can you ask yourself a new question, or create a new ritual, around the way you eat? Maybe, you can take the time to make a blessing before biting into your food.
Can you develop a new relationship that is true to the wholesome, G-dly purpose of every bite that you take?
Eskafya and eshapcha go hand in hand. It is in the moment of pause where we acknowledge the gift and life force in the food that nourishes our holy bodies that we access the opportunity to write a new story and interact with our struggles in an entirely different way.