Jewish women talking about Torah and the lived experience of our Judaism.
Tonia Chazanow: Hi, I'm Tonia, and you are listening to Human and Holy, a podcast where we discuss the deepest parts of Torah. Not just as scholars, but also as human beings.
In today's episode, I speak with Rivkah Slonim and Sara Morozow. Their new book, titled Holy Intimacy, covers the deeper meaning and practical elements of Jewish marriage. In addition to covering intimacy, they also discuss the mitzvah of having children, hair covering, and some sections dedicated to brides and newly married couples.
Today, we zero in on the Torah’s perspective on holy sexual intimacy. In preparation for this conversation, I put up a question box on the Human and Holy Instagram page, and received a flood of messages on the topic. I did my absolute best to weave as many as possible into this conversation, and hopefully represent a diversity of voices and experiences on this topic. That being said, I wanted to create a space for us to have a completely unfiltered conversation on this topic. Because this is a recorded podcast, it has its limitations, so we will be having a follow up book club on Holy Intimacy, and a live Q & A with the authors, exclusively for Human and Holy community members, on our special community platform. Membership to join our online community is $15 a month. You can cancel anytime. It's a really awesome space. In addition to this upcoming Q & A on the topic of holy intimacy, we also have a weekly Tanya and journaling discussion group, led by Devorah Freundlich. A monthly Tanya class and live coaching with Devori Nussbaum. A weekly podcast club, events in honor of Jewish holidays, and a really special group of women committed to spiritual growth. Visit humanandholy.com/community to join. Link is in the show notes.
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[Musical Interlude]
[00:02:58] TC: Alright. Welcome. I'm so happy to have you here. Can you each introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you?
Rivkah Slonim: Well, first, Tonia, thank you for having us. It's a joy to be on your podcast. It has quite the following. And we appreciate the opportunity. My name is Rivkah Slonim. Everybody calls me Rivky. My husband and I founded the Chabad Center for Jewish Student Life, the Rohr Chabad Center for Jewish Student Life, at Binghamton University in 1985. We've been shluchim of the Rebbe since then, here at Binghamton.
Yeah, I'm very privileged to be a mother and a grandmother. And I just had a new grandson. So, I'm very, very grateful to Hashem for that. And I love ideas and I love the opportunity to share them.
Sara Morozow: My name is Sara Morozow. I live in Crown Heights. I teach currently in seminary, Bais Rivkah Seminary. However, I have taught kallahs, brides, preparing them for marriage for over two decades. And I currently run a kallah teacher training program for Taharas Hamishpacha instructors all over the world. I'm the curriculum advisor. And, yeah, that's basically it.
TC: Thank you both so much for being here. Today, we're discussing a book that you co-authored, Holy Intimacy. And we're going to talk a little bit about sexual intimacy, which is how you call it in the book, from the perspective of Torah.
So, I want to open with an excerpt that you quoted from the Lubavitcher Rebbe's farbrengen, in your note from the authors titled, Why you are holding this book? I think it's a nice thing to open this conversation with.
[00:04:44] The Rebbe is quoted as saying, "Is this modest conduct, you might ask? Can one talk publicly about such things?" Speaking about intimacy. "Today, intimate subjects are written about openly in the newspapers and are being taught to ten-year-old children in school. There's a rationalization for such practices for child's education to be complete. People explain it is necessary to teach them about all the dimensions of married life. But they are being taught an immoral conception of married life. In such an environment, one should not be ashamed to speak about Taharas Hamishpacha. The listeners will know more than the teachers. But the listener’s knowledge will not have come from a holy source. So, teach Taharas Hamishpacha. Don't be embarrassed. You will not reveal any secrets that your listeners do not know. Speak openly!”
When I read that, I felt so comforted, because this is definitely a topic that's out of my comfort zone. I think that reassurance is a good invitation for us from the Rebbe to speak about this, to speak openly and to really share what the Torah's perspective is on intimacy.
I’d love if we could begin just by giving some context. What do you believe is the core differentiation between the Torah's perspective on sexual intimacy and the secular perspective?
[00:05:59] RS: There are at least two differences I can point to immediately. One would be context, context, context. And the other, and they're intertwined, is making the mistake of thinking that our sexual urge, which is second only to the will to survive. So, it's a very, very strong urge. And G-d created it that way. Is somehow the same as our need for our metabolic needs; our need for food, or drink, or oxygen. Those I think are terrible mistakes to make, to take sex, sexual intimacy, out of a larger context and to relate to it like just another human function.
So let's start with the second one. By understanding that our sexuality, first of all, is not a need in the same way as is food, hydration and oxygen. It's an emotional need. It's an urge, but it's an emotional need. And when you conflate it with a physical need, you get disastrous results. And that feeds into that first difference of taking it out of context. It has to be kept within the context of something larger. Otherwise, you're taking something so precious and so splendorous, and it's worse than just demeaning it or perverting it. You're not able to tap into its essence. And that's tragic. Because everybody deserves the depth, and the joy and the wealth that is human intimacy done right.
[00:07:41] SM: I just want to add a little point, perhaps on a more, maybe practical level, or in simple terms. Sexual intimacy is actually an expression of a deep inner connection. It's not just an outer form of sharing your physical space with one another, but it's a statement or an expression of a deep level of connection starting with the deep inner soul.
And that's really the crux of the matter. It's unique, because like Rivky was saying, the context with your soulmate when you're tehora, when you're pure. After the woman has immersed in the mikvah. In a kosher marriage, we take the opportunity to bond and connect on the deepest level. And that the mind, the heart, the soul and the body are all fused as one as we both – not only do we enter each other's space, but both our connective space merge as one. And that is really the foundation.
And because it starts from the inner soul, that's the essence, that's the core, on the soul mates, we can only get that ultimate connection when we are bonding with our soul. If we just focus on the outer layers, yes, you can have sexual relations with people. Like, yeah, have fun. Use your body. Or even emotionally. People could be emotionally connected and express their bonding that way as well. But from the Torah perspective, or from G-d himself, the true essence of intimacy is when we bond with our soulmate, which we only have one, in the context of a kosher marriage when we're tehora.
And then, of course, it's not just the soul connection. It definitely is expressed with the mind focused, with our emotions totally there for each other and our bodies totally intertwined as one. Like it says V’hayu Basar Echad. There's no disconnect from all those layers. They're all fused and merged together as one.
[00:09:38] RS: Tonia, I'm struck by what you said about being uncomfortable with the subject. It reminds me of something Morah Heller, Aleh Hashalom, once said. She was asked to speak about tzniut, about modesty. And I remember, I will never forget this, her standing at the microphone and her absolute discomfort that was broadcasted in her posture. And then she started to speak and she said, "I don't understand how one speaks about tznius publicly. That's oxymoronic."
And I think we're talking about something in the same vein. And yet, for whatever reasons, it is important that we speak about these things. But that feeling of discomfort is not a pedestrian discomfort. It's not prudishness. It's not embarrassment. It's awe. It's being in awe of how big this is. How deep this is. How impossible it really is to talk about without obfuscating what's most important about it. So, you know that you're treading on holy ground. I think all three of us do.
[00:10:47] TC: I love that reframing. Like it's not discomfort. It's awe. And it's a very holy and sacred topic. And so, we do approach it with trepidation and with awe to do it, to do right by it and not to compromise like the sacredness and purity of it. And it is absolutely necessary to be able to speak about it in such open terms. As the Rebbe said with an exclamation mark, "Speak openly!"
You spoke about how the Torah's perspective on sexual intimacy is mainly context. Context within a committed relationship, context within tahara, purity. And then context within just like, a holy intention when coming together. Once it is done within that context, is there anything more that differentiates sexual intimacy between a husband and wife that love each other, that are keeping the halachos of taharas hamishpacha? Is there anything else there that you would say is essential to a Jewish intimacy?
[00:11:44] SM: So, in anything Jewish, let's say when it comes to the food that we eat, there are biblical prohibitions, there are rabbinical prohibitions. And then there's also in the Code of Jewish Law, the Shulchan Aruch, there's a chapter on the proper way to eat, the dignified way to eat as Jewish people.
And even when it comes to food, sometimes you're just eating a breakfast, sometimes it's just enjoying a Shabbos meal. And some of our foods, like when we eat matza on Pesach, it's actually a separate mitzvah onto itself.
So, the same thing when it comes to intimacy, there are different layers that are talked about. Like Rivky said about context. And the context that's talked about in Shulchan Aruch will describe how we best achieve that oneness. So, if our goal is to achieve that absolute oneness, and connection, and bonding – And especially, I've been teaching for over two decades. And it's so interesting to me, that with the advent of like, internet, and we're all over the place connecting to everyone, our phones, 24/7, this Torah view about absolute connectivity, and bonding and exclusivity is so refreshing. People appreciate it so much more now than ever before. Even I appreciate Shabbos more than ever before, because my phone is my place of work. And when I shut that phone, I have such a peace to sense in my life. I should do it more often every day.
So this, just speaking to people, what Torah has to say thousands of years ago, I find is so much more appreciated now that those kind of – I wouldn't call them rules maybe. Or restrictions. I don't know what – Rivky will find the better word. She's good with words. You could jump in here. But they're all not there to withhold or to take something away, but it's to create that vacuum, or that empty space where nothing else is there. Just the husband and wife, and the Eibishter Himself.
So now people could appreciate more that just, take that chatter. Just take it all away and just find that framework of like absolute connection. So there are rules, but they're not to restrict. They're to get everything out of the way, to create that empty space that husband or wife could just be there together.
[00:13:55] RS: I think intentionality is really important. And the Shulchan Aruch speaks about the mind space, and how important the thought process is, and how important it is that neither be inebriated. Because when you're drunk, you're not really there with your mind, and your heart and your soul. Intentionality. Understanding that this is, like I said earlier, sacred ground. And that only the two of you tread there.
One of the things we speak about in the book is cherishing that private space and not comparing and contrasting. And there is a time where people might need to turn to somebody older or somebody, if they think they need professional help, or what have you, with questions. And we don't believe anybody should suffer because they're afraid to ask or don't have anyone to ask. And we hope that we can alleviate that a little bit with the practical question and answer section in our book as well.
But at the same time, it's counterproductive. It's really oxymoronic to speak about intimacy with everybody else, and be comparing and contrasting what you are doing and what other people are doing. It's your journey. And that's what makes it so special, that it's just you and this one other person in the whole entire world.
[00:15:12] TC: How can people hold both an openness to the subject and topic and speak about it openly, while also maintaining their personal privacy when it comes to the subject to maintain that private space?
SM: I don't think openness is, talk to everyone all the time wherever you want. Openness would mean you are given the tools, the thought processes, the psychology, the hashkafa, the halacha, the Chassidic explanation. You get the ideas in your head. And then, communication is the key here. Sit down with your husband, or stand up with your husband, whatever. Spend time. And you take all those ideas and you have your own journey. How you could be intimate with each other in a way that suits your personal needs. I don't think the openness the Rebbe referred to is all of our social media, talk whatever, share whatever. Openness means, talk about it. Just like we teach about Shabbos and about kashrus, and all the other Mitzvahs in the Torah. This is not a subject that we skip over the pesukim, or we skip over, or we hush-hush. This is just like, shabbos is Torah and kashrus is Torah. Taharas hamishpacha and intimacy is Torah. And I think that's what the Rebbe meant about openness. Not all over the place.
[00:16:29] RS: I think a really important idea is this idea that's spoken of over and over and over in Chassidic discourses and maamarim. It's a deep idea in Kabbalah and developed in Chassidus, that every revelation is a concealment of sorts. And every concealment actually gives rise to a revelation. And the trick is to understand what kind of concealment will segue into a deep and authentic revelation. And what kind of revelation actually serves to be a detrimental concealment?
So what we try to do in our book is allow people – At the same time, we actually want them to come away with two things; to know, and to know that this is essentially unknowable. What can you know? You can know certain things. There are certain terms that we use in our book that we know have not appeared in a book by frum authors before. And that's not because we want to be salacious or we're trying to raise anybody's ire, Chas V’chalila, or be disrespectful to the subject.
On the contrary, we feel that women need to have a source that is rooted in Torah, rooted in Chassidus, rooted in heaven, but it's down to earth and they should not have to resort to unsavory sources to get this kind of information.
But at the same time, once you move away the blockage, or the impediment that has been created by not giving this information to people that need it, then they can actually happen on what's really unknowable. What is really awesome? What is really precious? What intimacy really, really is? So, we want to take that away so people can lean in and find the wholeness and the joy that can only be found in this area of life.
At the same time, we still want to leave our readers, really, our sisters, because we felt like we're really sitting down with sisters, with the sense that there's nothing you could possibly write about the subject that will do it justice. It's like a love note. No matter what you write, it can't capture. By definition, it cannot capture what you feel in your heart. If what's on that note has captured what you have in your heart, then what you have in your heart is not love.
But at the same time, there's no way to impart that, except to do your best with the words that we've been given. Those are just kind of keilim, vessels for the light that supersedes them.
[00:19:13] SM: I just want to say, maybe in practical words, I think one of the messages of the book is there's no formula. Now we live in the information age. And everything is like a formula. Or everything that you want to choose. You want to weigh this over that. You know, there's so many choices that people feel like, "Oh –.” You know, people are asking, like, reviews. What's the best way? What's the best product? What's the best for this amount of money and the comparing and contrasting of the ratios and the formulas?
And I think this, after being in this book, I think we hope, I hope, that it gives every woman, every couple, space to feel good in their own skin. To feel healthy in their own space. And that space shifts throughout a marriage. And throughout even within every cycle. Never mind within the lifespan of a marriage. Going through many changes. And I think we have to run far, far, far from lists and rules.
And there are some rules within the framework of Torah, you know? But I'd like to compare it when we enter the Beis Hamikdash. There are so many rules about tumah and tahara. But actually, the rules of entering that holy space, like once we remove everything, there's hardly any rules there. Very little. Maybe one chapter in the Rambam. Maybe a few. I don't know, I didn't count. The laws of tumah and tahara are chapters and chapters and chapters.
So here also, once we remove whatever gets in the way, and we have that framework, every couple could journey into their own private space together. They have the tools. They can navigate. Or there's room to reach out and get some ideas if you need a little help.
But I think intimacy is turning to each other. And I think that's really what we're trying to provide in the book, that how to turn to each other, or the importance of turning to each other. Because that's really what it's all about. Not copying what everyone else does.
[00:21:01] RS: I think another great gift is allowing our readers to understand that human sexuality is a gift from Hashem, from our Creator. And that sexual pleasure is important. And it is part of their husband's obligations to them. And that sometimes you have to partner with your husband in helping him find the best way to pleasure you. And you should not hold back. You should do exactly that. And that that will just strengthen the relationship you have. And when things are good in the home, they're going to be great in the bedroom. And when things are great in the bedroom, that further nourishes what's going on in every other room of the house. This is not just a cubby hole. It's an all-pervasive energy that feeds and nourishes every other part of your life, and every other part of your life is kind of like a feedback loop, will make what you have in the bedroom better.
But not to feel like, "Oh, my G-d, we can't talk about this." Or, "I'm just supposed to be a good girl and lay here. And I don't need to worry about anything else." No. You're not passive in your own life. And this is the most important part of your life.
[00:22:08] SM: We gave a lot of space from people that are coming in, not from the Moshiachdike ideal, where there's constant love, and passion, and pleasure and, "Wow! Amazing." But there's also room for- people go through challenging times. It's part of Hashem's plan in this world. And there will be ups and downs and different stuff going on by different people. Hopefully, some things are just passing phase. For happy reasons, like a pregnancy. And sometimes it's an ongoing challenge. And sometimes, in the way of nature, this challenge may never go away.
And part of our theme of the book, or not theme, but what we wanted to include is to make it real and practical. We hear, both of us, not just of the, "Wow! Wow! Amazing." But we hear of real people with real lives and real situations. And we hope- either past experience that could have been traumatic, or current challenges. And we hope we addressed a certain level of comfort, and acceptance, and working with what we have. Creating the greatest intimate space within what Hashem provided for me at this moment. Not past. Not future. But at this moment, creating that best intimacy.
Every minute in Torah is a new beginning, a new created moment. And just to grab an opportunity in the here and now.
[00:23:29] TC: I put up a question box on the Human and Holy Instagram page, which we'll get to some of the questions literally, soon. But something that came in again and again, I would say like the top submission, was, can we talk about a woman's pleasure? Because we're talking here about how the Torah's perspective on sexual intimacy is all about just the soulful and physical connection between a husband and wife. But in order for a woman to want to be participating in that, her pleasure is also part of it and needs to be focused on. So, many women were asking, how can they pursue that in a way that feels true to the relationship?
[00:24:05] RS: If their relationship is good, their relationship is solid, and they're caring for each other, and they understand that what happens outside of the bedroom is just as important as what happens inside the bedroom. So first, let's talk about that.
If a wife feels like she needs extra help, or she needs to be like, cared for, or nourished, or that he has her back. We talk about maybe a phone call during the day, or sending a note, or something, some kind of surprise, or rolling up the sleeves and saying, "I'll do the dishes." Or, "I'll clean up after dinner." Or, "I'll put the kids to sleep." Or whatever it is. So, first of all, they're setting the mood. And that's more important to a woman than almost anything else. Almost. I note. Okay?
And then once you're in the bedroom, if you have open lines of communication, if you're feeling comfortable in your relationship. And maybe even more importantly, with this subject, and you don't find it shameful or wrong for you to express what you need, then you can just find a way to tell your husband, "This feels good. When you do this, this feels good. This makes me – This arouses me." And so on and so forth.
[00:25:11] SM: I wanted to focus – maybe on a different angle, about pleasure in the context of the orgasm, the climax. We could view having a climax in two different ways. We could view it as a goal in it itself, like the yardstick, the measuring stick of success. Or we could view it as a by-product. Because a very important component of achieving that climax is to totally let go. Let go of any control.
And that requires feeling a hundred percent safe and vulnerable with your husband. First and foremost, with yourself. Letting go of all fears, anxieties, shopping lists, to-do lists, problems, challenges, all that stuff. It's not between us. It's not even the room. It's not even our space. It's not in my head. Also, feeling totally vulnerable in the presence of your husband. And then the body takes over.
It's not a focus, "How am I going to achieve pleasure?" That already becomes a control issue, or a to-do list, versus just being subsumed with each other or just totally connected and just being safe, and vulnerable, and embraced and cherished by the other. Kind of nature takes over, and she gets there. And it's not a to-do.
Of course, on a practical level, husband and wife have to communicate. Just on a practical level, which parts of their body feel good for each other in different ways. What kind of stroking? What kind of kisses? Whatever. It doesn't really matter. Different spaces and different – But that's kind of just the hachana, the preparation of it. But it's not like the focus is pleasure. The pleasure doesn't get in the way. The pleasure is the kind of by-product of being there.
[00:26:58] RS: I think, also, very practically speaking, women need to feel that it's okay if they need something that helps them out. That's not forgotten, if that's something that they need. And they may need that later on in marriage. Because at the very beginning, just the sensation of being together, and just being physical can be – Really, all you need. But for some people, even early on in the marriage, they can use help. They can use some assistance. And that should not become like a whole big deal.
You know, you need something in some other area. You buy what you need. You need something in this area? You buy what you need. Of course, the intimacy is much larger than that. But, if you don't take care of these details, then we're back again to the, this becoming something that conceals rather than revealing.
Because then, it just takes over. It takes over. And then both begin to feel like failures or projects. She feels like a project because he can't bring her to pleasure. And she feels like failure. Or she's broken. Or something is wrong. And so on and so forth. So, there's a place at this point to seek counsel if that's absolutely necessary. If they feel it’s necessary. And also, to just use some simple assistance that's available.
[00:28:19] SM: Rivky said it very well. But the message we're both giving is, that all those details are super important to create the setting, the environment. And once you have that all in place, just let go, and just be.
People go through many phases in life, from the beginning of marriage to 120. And sometimes, it won't be possible to let go, and it won't be possible to achieve a climax for whatever practical reason. It can happen. But that doesn't take away from the essence, which is a woman and her husband should both feel totally embraced, satisfied, with a deep sense of connection, of security, of calmness, of vulnerability, of just healthy bonding and attachment.
So, again, sometimes when we focus that the goal is the pleasure – I mean, the climax. Because there's so many other forms of pleasure. But I'm talking about actually orgasm. Sometimes if it doesn't happen, we feel like, "Oh, all's lost." And if somebody feels like that, we’re almost, we have to step back and look at the bigger picture. Because, like, the details take away from the essence.
I want to say, on the other hand, if a woman consistently cannot achieve a climax or a man consistently can't perform properly, they should reach out to find out what's going on here. There's so many solutions. We shouldn't keep living like that forever or even for – I don't want to give amounts of days, weeks or months. But it requires- not requires. There’s so much that can be done to upgrade that situation. There's no reason to continue that way. But if occasionally, that's what's going on, even if you're just going through a stressful time and you can't let go because you're too anxious, it's not an all or nothing situation. Just creating that healthy bonding attachment, safe space, is so nourishing and nurturing. And it's like the best medicine you could give to a relationship.
[00:30:21] RS: I think this is another area where we understand just how noxious it can be to compare and contrast what you're doing as opposed to what your friend is doing, or your cousin, or your neighbor, and so on and so forth. A lot of times people set up expectations in their minds. And life doesn't mimic those expectations. And that sets them up for disappointment and very unnecessary angst. Because it's you, and your husband, and your bodies, and your life, and your relationship, and that's all. There's nobody else in this equation. And that's something really hard to achieve these days, to get all of that clutter out of the way and just be together alone exclusively. Because intimacy is very much about exclusivity. And when you bring all these other images in your mind and all this other stuff, you can't really achieve that level of comfort and abandon that true intimacy is about.
[00:31:22] SM: I want to add one more point from the hashkafic perspective. And I hope we don't have that many listeners that perhaps are stuck on this. But that's where Chassidus plays such an important point, how we could express the holiest, lofty, spiritual energies within, and specifically through our very physical bodies. That having that physical pleasure is not a contradiction to G-dliness, but it's an expression that G-d is everywhere. There's no place.
And with intimacy, you see that. there's certain Mitzvahs that we use only one part of our body. You know, if we put on Tefillin, it’s on our arm, if we smell besamim, it’s through our nose, if we eat matzahs, we digest. And even when we, let's say, immerse in the Mikvah, our entire body is underneath. But only the amount of seconds that we have oxygen still in our lungs.
But when it comes to intimacy, it's a mitzvah that encompasses the mind, all our faculties. Our mind has to focus. Our emotions are involved. Our body, from head to toe, has all that energy of connection. And that's why it's like the mitzvah. It’s called the mitzvah because everything connects in a holy way. So, the physical pleasure is not a contradiction. It's just an expression of the all-encompassing kedusha that enters at that time.
[00:32:43] TC: I think that's actually so beautiful, because a Mitzvah is an act of intimacy between us and Hashem. And looking at physical intimacy as an example of that, of how the body, mind, soul, heart are all naturally being drawn to connect fully, is really beautiful.
And I also think something that kept coming up, which is really powerful, is the idea that if the pleasure isn't there, the essential bond can't be there. But if the pleasure is the only focus, then it's no longer a connection between two people. It needs to be emphasized and focused on, because that is actually the vehicle through which we connect.
[00:33:21] SM: Okay. But I want to add something, as human beings, okay? There's nothing wrong if you want to get into bed and just experience pleasure with each other and you don't feel so super connected. And there's also a mashal, an example I gave in the book, is about drinking wine. You know, yes, when you make Kiddush on wine, that's a holy mitzvah. And then there's opening up a good bottle of wine L’kavod Shabbos, as part of a Shabbos meal. So you're enjoying Shabbos.
And then there's every day that we just kind of want to drink wine together or we say a bracha, its kosher wine. So if you're married, and it's mutual consent, and you're having a good day, and you just want to explore your bodies for some pleasure only, okay. It's also good. It sounds over here that every instance we have to feel our mind connection, our body – this connection, that connection. Yes, that's great. But ordinary is also great.
[00:34:12] TC: I want to ask about that, because I do think that you're 100% right. Now, like I'm hearing it reflected back and I hear how elevated the definition of the Jewish perspective on intimacy is. What can be people's relationship with toning down the pressure of it necessarily being a spiritual experience and making room for their own humanity?
[00:34:32] RS: One of the things we talk about is how the beginning of the world as we know it today comes from Chava and Adam indulging in the Eitz Hada'as. And da'as can be understood as consciousness of the self. And the root of all spiritual pathology is putting the self before the transcendent, before G-d.
But at the same time, that's exactly the term used in the Torah for sexual intimacy- “V’Adam yada es Chava.” But the difference is that this becomes consciousness of the other rather than consciousness of the self.
And so, if nothing else, one of the things we're advocating for in this book is understanding that intimacy by definition is thinking about the other, rather than putting yourself at the center of all. Now, this doesn't mean to your detriment. It doesn't mean you're not allowed to think about your own pleasure and what you need and what makes you comfortable. But the overarching idea of being intimate is showering the other with your affection, with your undivided attention, with your complete focus.
And sometimes when we leave the self, we find greater joy, and greater happiness than we could possibly find locked in our own heads. And the fact that Hashem created a man and woman's body so differently, and in the aggregate, it takes a longer time for a woman to be aroused and for her to climax and so on and so forth. And maybe the difference is, is another way of G-d saying to us, "Be attentive to what the other needs." And understand that that's very much at the heart of what intimacy is.
Now, halachically, for a man, it's his obligation. Sexual intimacy is a woman's privilege and a man's obligation. But practically, any two people who are married want to pleasure each other. They want to do anything they can to enrich each other's lives. So if each comes in wanting to get, but even more than that, wanting to give, I think that's a really great springboard for all kinds of wonderful things to happen.
[00:36:53] SM: It's interesting. I heard the question very differently. I thought you asked how can we straddle, like, the holiness and the bigger picture versus my human self? That I have my own needs, or my own desires, or my own like humanists, or the nefesh habehamis, so to speak?
Of course, one way, like Rivky said, is go out of yourself and focus on the other. And then the question isn't a question anymore because you gain more that way. And that really will make you satisfied.
I just want to focus that, part of shutting everyone else out of the picture is getting to know yourself very well. And when you're okay with yourself or you're real with yourself, the question isn't a question. Because the Eibishter, G-d is wherever you let Him in. So, if you're tehora, and you're in a marriage of a consensual relationship, you follow the halacha. The halacha gives a lot of leeway. Or there's so many options within halacha. And being okay with yourself where we're at today. And tomorrow may be different. And yesterday may have been different. But being okay with yourself and bringing Hashem in where you're at, at that space with our human needs and with our human imperfections, I think people start feeling uncomfortable and guilty when they want to be someone who they're not right now.
[00:38:11] RS: You know, it's interesting because your podcast is called Human and Holy. But you could argue that to be human is to be holy. And the purpose of Torah, halacha, chassidus is to help us to not forget that truth, that Adam, the term Adam, is etymologically related to Adama L’elyon, likened unto G-d. So holiness is our default feature as humans. We sometimes just need to be reminded.
[00:38:45] TC: Nice. I like that, because I don't think that there's anywhere in Yiddishkeit that is more human and holy than sexual intimacy between a husband and wife.
RS: Exactly.
TC: That's beautiful. Yeah. So, something that comes up in Chassidus is the relationship between the masculine and feminine is this idea of mashpia and mekabel, giver and receiver. There's a lot of talk that I've seen about how literally people should take this teaching. And is it something that is central or integral to a couple's experience of sexual intimacy?
[00:39:17] RS: I think it is. I think that this could be understood in various ways. But I think it's important to acknowledge that this is a man's obligation and it's a unique and singular way in which he could give his wife something that nobody else can. I think it's important to acknowledge that.
At the same time, anybody that studies the whole idea, mashpia-mekabel, knows again that there's a feedback loop. And that every mekabel is essentially being mashpia. In accepting, she is bestowing upon the initiator, the privilege of being able to initiate. And every initiator is actually receiving the pleasure that comes with being able to initiate and being able to be so. So I think that remembering that, and giving each other space to do exactly that is important.
[00:40:10] SM: I just want to add a little detail. Just a woman's body, you know, we're sefiras hamalchus. We're the mekabel. So we are receiving, and in our womb we nurture. But then we're breastfeeding. That's outward. Even our physical bodies are a manifestation of that feedback loop, that we're nurturing the next layer and the next level.
I also want to add just on the practical level just from teaching for so many years, I don't know why, or when the mindset, they have to just receive what the husband has to offer. But I want to reframe the word mekabel. It's more to be welcoming. The woman is the one who creates that safe space for the husband to enter. She gives him the gifts of not just making- or not just being available. Available is the wrong word. She's actually creating the environment, creating the context. Or even by expressing to her husband what she needs in order to receive what he has to offer, gives him the best opportunity for him to be him. Denying that, withholding that information, is withholding from your husband the gift of being able to give you what you need and the gift of you receiving the best that he can offer.
The mekabel doesn't mean to fold your arms and wait for him to arrive and provide, but he decides, he thinks, might be a good idea for you. The ultimate mekabel is, a, to provide that- be that welcoming space. Create that welcoming space by communication, by creating whatever it is. But another important point of mekabel, and I think we discussed that in the book. And I'm not sure we gave this example in the book. But let's say as a mother, or if you're somebody who invites guests to your house. When you get to know your guests, you know what they need when they walk in the door. And we welcome each child – Let's say, when they come home from school, this one needs a plate of food. This one needs a listening ear. That one needs a hug. That one needs a punch ball to let out their energy. Everybody needs something different. Or your guests, you know?
A woman, it's so important for her to tune in what space she needs to create in order for her husband to feel welcomed into her space as well, in order for him to provide. So, the welcoming, the mekabel, is not passive. The mekabel is very active in creating the space for him to provide, or the desire. Or not just the desire, but to give it all he's got, because of the space that you created. And then she feels satisfied.
There's nothing- Like, when a woman welcomes her guests, or welcomes the Shabbos, or welcomes her children and they respond with that feedback loop, as we say, there's nothing more validating and satisfying for the woman. So, as much as sometimes people feel the receiving role is like one down. But in this context, it's very different. But we do make reference and a footnote of a very powerful explanation from the Rebbe about the sun and the moon. Although they originate as mashpia and mekabel, the next level is when they both meet and become one.
[00:43:26] RS: I think it's another way of understanding the Rebbe's chiddush on the maamer chazal- Aizehu Isha kashera hosah ritzon baalah. That she creates his will. It's not just in the bedroom. It's generally speaking that she creates the will. She is the anchor. She sets the tone. And in this respect also, she creates the will. She initiates the will.
TC: Nice. Okay. I want to now move on to sharing some audience questions. I was honestly amazed by the flood of questions that came in on social media when I asked about this topic. I hope that we can get through as many as possible. I'll start. I'll just read them out verbatim. "Does creating so many parameters around intimacy take out the drive and magic?"
[00:44:17] RS: I would say that, in every area of life, there are parameters. There's no area of life where there are no parameters. It's untenable. If you don't have borders, you don't have a country. If you don't have limitations, you don't have a space. If you love everyone, you love no one, and so on and so forth.
So I think that parameters are inherent to life in general. And again, it's about a concealment for the purpose of revelation. It's only when you learn the nautical rules that you can ride untrammeled on the waves safely. It's only when you put that string into the violin that it can make beautiful music. A loose string on the table, completely useless. This is no different.
[00:45:08] SM: And if you study the rules, which now's not the time to do so, each one really is there to take out the clutter, to create that explicit space and in a dignified way. To appreciate the balance between the humanness of it and the G-dliness of it together.
As human beings, I like to give the mashal. What's called dignified? What's called holy? And it could vary from person to person. But Chazal give us those halachos in order to teach us what is considered a dignified way of just, like, eating. We don't chew with our mouth open. We don't talk when we eat, because that's a dignified way for yidden, Am Kadosh, to eat. So too in the bedroom.
If you study the rules, they're either about exclusivity so that we can connect and truly bond. Or they're about dignity. That's really it. It's not about – It's, again, creating context. And then the rest, you're on your own.
TC: Someone asked this question, "What is the actual Halacha of what is asur?" Would you be willing to share like the most basic Halachos?
RS: Not to be coy. That's what the book is for.
[00:46:17] TC: But I felt like the book gave a resource to learn the Halachos. But it didn't actually share all the Halachos. Unless I missed something.
RS: Which Halachos? Are you talking about taharas hamishpacha?
[00:46:30] TC: No. I'm talking about specifically, we always reference, I think a little bit elusively, like, what are the halachos in the bedroom.
SM: No. If you want to learn the halachos, this book is not a halacha book. That's not the discussion. We just explain what's behind the halachos. Now, we make reference throughout chapter two of our book of many of the rules, because we want to explain the reasons behind it. But this is not a book of Halacha.
[00:46:57] RS: I'm uncomfortable with the word rules. There was a – I don't know. Tonia, you're too young. And Sara, I'm not sure if you're familiar. But there was a very famous book, The Rule. I keep thinking about that. And I, for other reasons as well, think rules is the wrong word here. Guidelines is – and it's not just semantics. Because rules is like a ruler. It's exact. It's this amount of inches. That amount of inches. And there's a lot of wiggle room here because no two people are the same. No two relationships are the same. And so, they're guidelines.
SM: Just think about our whole conversation until now. Just think a minute. It's not a list. It's missing the point.
[00:47:38] TC: Okay. I just want to press a little bit more here because I do think there is ambiguity in the public eye, is that people hear that when you're with your husband, everything is allowed. But also, it should be dark. And also, you should be under the covers. All of these things. So, people are asking. And this is something that came in a few times. That's why I'm pressing. What are the bare bone halachos that there is – unless you go to a Rav and get a heter for whatever personal reasons, what are the black and white halachos? What are the strings that are attached to the wood of the violin?
SM: I want to sit back and – Again, this is not a story hour. But from my perspective, when somebody would call me as a kallah teacher for many years and say, "Can we do this? Can we do that?" There's always a story behind it. And speaking to the person, I mean, the couple, because you hear both sides of the story. But not to the detail of allowed or not allowed. But you see the full picture. Oftentimes, it becomes – There's a game plan or there's a game changer that we could insert in the mix that people don't have to go to places where like all else fails. This is what you could do.
On the other hand, as a kallah teacher, sometimes I have to do the other way around. Sometimes even things that are said, that are asur. But in their specific situation where the traumas or challenges that they're going through, for them, it becomes kodesh kedoshim, because that's how the Rav paskens. And then they feel guilty that they have to engage in a behavior that they saw in Shulchan Aruch it says it’s asur. Then it could be guilt-invoking if it's done out of context.
We have to know that every part of our lives is to do, incorporate the will of Hashem in our human experience as that human and holy. Just like in every chapter of Shulchan Aruch, there's the everyday life. And then we have the exception. You know, in Shulchan Aruch, if its hefesd meruba- there's a big loss.
I remember once, I cooked something. I think maybe a roast with a fish in the oven. I don't remember what it was. And I was going to throw the whole thing in the garbage because I thought, "Okay, I did it all wrong." And I happened to call the Rav because I wanted to find out for the future if I have to kasher something. And he says, "Why are you throwing the roast in the garbage?" I said, "Because I want to do it super holy." And he says “Baal Tashchis is also a Mitzvah. The Shulchan Aruch says, in your situation, you have to eat the roast. Throwing it out would be against the will of G-d.
So, the same thing here. Yes, even when we read the code of Jewish law and we see – if it doesn't work for you and it's going to be destructive to your relationship, there's a lot more to the story. And therefore, I feel it's so unfair to just present a black and white rule sheet so to speak.
[00:50:20] Because in this audience, I guarantee you – and you have a very broad audience. We don't know who the exception to the rule becomes their mitzvah and who should really follow – if you start following those rules, it'll actually enhance the whole picture.
Again, but I do want to emphasize. Most of the time, from the hundreds of stories that I was involved in, there's usually another piece of the puzzle that has an emotional aspect or a practical aspect, when we change the equation, the rules fall into place. Or how do you call it? The guidelines. The guidelines fall into place. It's not for rules. Again, I'm so passionate about this to see the whole story. Because it's a story. It's not a rule.
[00:51:05] RS: I just wanted to elongate this conversation a little by just referencing, we literally reference hundreds of sichos and maamarim in our book. And in one, the Rebbe talks about how Moshe Rabbeinu was unable to appreciate the offering, the distinctive offering of the women. They offered their copper mirrors. And he at first was repulsed actually, and saw it as an instrument of vanity. And not something that had a place in the Holy Temple. And Hashem told him, "You don't understand. These mirrors are more precious to me than anything else."
Another says that sometimes you could look at something and not appreciate the inherent holiness and the sacredness. But the woman knows what she has to do. And each woman is trusted. She knows what she has to do for her marriage, for her relationship in her bedroom.
Another thing we tripped upon in our research was that of all the keilim in the Mishkan, this one has no dimension. Because the kior that all of the mirrors were melted down in order to fashion had to be made of every single mirror that was donated for this cause.
And so, it was as large as it would be to include every woman's mirror. Every woman's mirror reflects a different reality. And so, we're not trying to avoid the question out of coyness, or to be politically correct, or correct in any other way as much as to honor the profundity of the subject matter and each person's distinctive life and their relationship, their mirror. They're all beautiful and they're all precious to the Eibishter.
[00:52:52] SM: Rivky, that was wonderful. That was mamash amazing. Thank you.
TC: That was beautiful. I think that really gives context to why you don't want to list. And I appreciate that. So, thank you.
This question is: What is the Torah's perspective on the woman initiating sexual intimacy with her husband?
[00:53:10] RS: I think we talked about how a mekabel is in fact an initiator. And there are different ways of initiating. There is discussion about her not asking in full-throated manner. But you could also understand that, I think on a more subtle level, that no woman wants to beg to be wanted.
And so, what the halacha says, she shouldn't ask. It's really because that in itself can be a complete downer and just take all the air out of the balloon. Who wants to ask to be wanted?
On the other hand, I think women have an easier time reading body language than do men. And especially at the beginning of a marriage, I think it might be necessary for a woman to be able to find a way to convey what she does want, in maybe a more subtle fashion. And I think it's on a husband to be attuned to that.
And I love the way the Torah makes him responsible to be attentive to his wife. Is she splashing on a little bit more perfume? Is she taking a little bit more pains with her appearance? Is she asking what's your schedule tonight? And so on and so forth. That makes a boy into a man, when he learns how to be attentive to those cues, as subtle as they might be.
[00:54:28] SM: I just want to address the other end of the spectrum, where it talks about – The Gemara talks about nine types of relationships that are not considered proper because the husband and wife are not totally focused on each other either emotionally or with their mind. Like, if one of them is drunk, or they're angry at each other.
One of the examples also given is if a woman overwhelms her husband with just intense provocativeness, that he gets hormonally excited. But he's not really there. That's also a negation of a proper relationship, because that also – you miss the point if the point is that there should be that connection there.
That's why it's so individual, because every husband and wife have their own language, so to speak, when it comes to getting each other excited, so to speak. It's not, "Should we wear this? Should we use that? Should I use those words?" It's really between them. What's considered that subtle, or not so subtle, or welcoming, versus the overwhelming or overpowering.
[00:55:29] TC: So let's go on to the next question. This woman writes, "What is the Torah's take on birth control? When is it allowed for women to use contraception and not?"
RS: I would say this. I would say we emerged from a certain point of departure, and that is that having children is not a lifestyle choice as it is perceived or framed conventionally. But from the Torah perspective, it's a mitzvah. When a woman marries a man, she becomes his partner in this mitzvah. And the halacha has very specific parameters as to how you fulfill this mitzvah. And we hope and we pray that each one of our listeners will have an easy journey in fulfilling this mitzvah. G-d willing.
And as to the particulars of their relationship, and their life, and her health, both physiological and emotional, and so on and so forth, that's where for the halacha-abiding couple, they would seek counsel as to what is the best way for them to fulfill this mitzvah optimally.
Certainly, for Lubavitcher women who are guided by the Rebbe's teachings, we know that, generally speaking, he really urged each couple to bring as many neshamas in bodies into this world as possible for them. But each couple has different possibility, different bandwidth, different capabilities. And that's where speaking with a Mashpia is so important.
[00:57:01] TC: All right. There's lots more questions, but I guess I'll list them, because these were spoken about in the book. So if anyone wants answers to these questions, how can someone who is single and has previous views of sexual intimacy from movies transition into a marriage with the Torah perspective? How can I be shomer while dating? Pleasure, which we spoke about. Female masturbation before marriage. What else? And then there's a full chapter about the Torah's take on birth control and many excerpts from the Lubavitcher Rebbe about that topic.
And I think we'll end it there in terms of the questions. Is there anything that you would like to share as closing remarks before we wrap up our interview?
[00:57:42] RS: We didn't come to this project from an academic perspective. We came to it very organically from our life's experience. And interestingly enough, me living in Binghamton for almost four decades, and Sara living in a Chassidishe community and doing her educating and teaching within that community, the questions and the angst and the necessity for clarification, there was very little daylight between the two experiences.
So, like Sara said before, these are questions we've gotten hundreds, maybe thousands of times. And we hope that we can create a comfortable space in which women can look at these questions, can hear their own questions echoed back, hopefully can feel validated in their insecurities, or in maybe some confusion. We also think this is a book that will resonate differently at different times in life.
There are parts which we are actually hoping high school girls will read. And there are parts that will become more relevant when people are engaged to be married. But there's often time, a lot of time, between high school and when people get married, depending on what their experience is. And maybe it's even in that longer period of time where reading this book will become so important to actually be centered in Torah ideals and Chassidic perspective.
[00:59:04] And we think that women who've been married for a year, or two, or 10, or 50 can also find a lot of these ideas enriching and refreshing. We hope, more than anything, that people find comfort and joy and realize just how good G-d is to us. I often think, like, "Why did Hashem have to make so many beautiful flowers? Why so many different colored vegetables? Why music? Why art?" It seems that pleasure is a very important gift that Hashem has given us.
And if we could give people the gift of being able to find a context for that pleasure that feels personally enriching and also right on a more transcendent level, I think we will have been a modicum successful.
One of the big things is that our personal intimacies is nestled within a larger rubric of the intimacy between humanity and, specifically, Knesses Yisroel and Hashem. And what Hashem wanted more than anything was to be married to us. That's the audacious idea in Jewish theology. That Hashem is not just our Father and not just our King, but our spouse. And is vulnerable, and needy because of his design for our overtures. And our intimacy is part of those overtures. Our personal intimacies have cosmic importance. And we want people to feel both the awesomeness, and the joy, and the comfort, and pleasure. And our working thesis is that it's all possible. That they're not mutually exclusive. That's what it means to be intimate. It's all of those things. And even when life is messy, a couple's intimacy can be that oasis. They can find a safe harbor in that.
[01:01:07] SM: I'm just coming from a different angle here as my parting thought, is from the beginning of the book, and I hope to the very end, it brings the voice of the Eibeshter into the picture. Because there's all – Now, it's so in. Listen to your inner voice. And as Yidden, we have two voices. We have our G-dly soul and our animal soul. And there's two voices.
And that struggle or that pull here, different directions can cause confusion, and then shame and guilt. We don't know which direction we're going. And I think the book is like an anchor where the G-dly voice within the human experience is very loud and clear.
And in every chapter, the question then is, "What does the Eibeshter say about this?" And it's really all about making the Eibeshter happy because shalom bayis is super important. And just having that comfort and security. Knowing that, "Wow! Hashem is right here with me. This is how I bring Hashem right into this very room in this time and space," is really, I think, for a Yid, is the most secure way of having intimacy. Knowing that on the deepest level of your soul, it just feels right.
That's the point of the book, to kind of give voice to the Eibeshter's voice within our human experience. And throughout the book, tune into that. I think you'll find a lot of it.
[01:02:36] RS: I just wanted to underscore that, at the same time, every time we talk about what the Eibeshter's voice is, we say, "But if it doesn't work for you in your reality, then that's not what the Eibeshter wants for you." The Eibeshter wants His/Her kinderlach to be happy. It has to work for you. It has to work for your shalom bayis.
SM: We spoke a lot about that. And we spoke a lot over and over again, reach out, speak to somebody who knows more. Like we said, the bottom line is there's so much room. Getting back to the question about the rules. It's not about rules. They're guidelines. But the bottom line is every couple needs to be honest with themselves where they're at and to be there for each other in that space with the Eibeshter himself really.
[01:03:23] TC: You mentioned the Nefesh Habehamis and the Nefesh Elokis, and the tension between them. But I think something actually you've been speaking to this entire time is that, in a truly G-dly sexual intimacy, the Nefesh Habehamis is satisfied. The nefesh Habehamis is not in the struggle with the Nefesh Elokis. That's why it's such a beautiful paradigm of transformation because the Nefesh Habehamis and Nefesh Elokis are enjoying the entire experience. And there is no struggle.
RS: One of the things we referenced in a footnote is a study conducted of married women. It was a rather large sample, and their happiness index with their intimate lives. And one of the remarkable findings was that religious women seem to find more pleasure in their intimate lives.
And I love what you said about how it's not a contest between the Nefesh Habehamis and Nefesh Elokis. Because the Nefesh Habehamis gets what she wants most within this rubric. We just have to be able to really appreciate that. Like, lean into that truth.
[01:04:23] SM: I just want to quote the Hayom Yom, which is so important, which is really the foundation. It’s a foundation of all our lives and definitely true of our intimacies. And that is – and here's the Hayom Yom of chof beis Shvat, what happens to be the yahrzeit of the Rebbetzin. “There are two kinds of laws; laws that generate life and laws that are generated by life. Man-made laws result from life. And that is why they differ in every country, each according to its local circumstances. G-d's Torah is the divine law that generates life. It is the Torah of truth. The same in all places and all times. The Torah is eternal.”
And when you read these same guidelines in Shulchan Aruch based on – from thousands of years ago, it applies today. It's the same. It creates the framework for healthy, holy, intimate lives. No matter where you are in time, in space, and in person, and there's so many different times, different cultures, different countries, and different types of people with different challenges. Not only bodies, and personalities and emotions. But going through so many challenges. The Torah doesn't change. And the guidelines are the same. And they work. If they're not working for you, ask. That needs to be corrected. But they're meant to work to maximize the satisfaction of the couple.
[01:05:43] TC: Nice. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing. And I will put a link for people to purchase the book. Definitely, read the book to get a really comprehensive overview on this topic and answers to many questions that we obviously couldn't cover during our interview.
Thank you both for writing this. I know that it was a big project and something that hasn't really been done before in the frum world. Thank you for putting yourselves out there like that. And even with the trepidation, marching forward and speaking openly. So thank you.
RS: Thank you for the opportunity. All the best.
[Musical Interlude]
[Outro]
[01:06:42] TC: Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and if you did, I want to invite you to leave a rating or a review. It helps other people find the podcast, and you know we're all about getting chassidus into every corner of the world. I also want to invite you, if you really loved it, to share it with a friend who you think might love it too.
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