Jewish women talking about Torah and the lived experience of our Judaism.
[00:00:55] Tonia Chazanow: Hello. I'm Tonia, and you are listening to Human and Holy, a podcast where we discuss the deepest parts of Torah. Not just as scholars, but also as human beings.
Today’s episode is co-sponsored by the Schwartzs and Chayale Hershkovitz. The Schwartzs dedicated this episode in honor of their father, Shlomo Yitzchak ben Moshe, AKA Schwartzie, whose yartzeit is Yud Beis Shvat. From his daughters and granddaughters who love learning Chassidus, are always happy to be inspired, and love programs that continuously inspire, like Human and Holy. Thank you. Chayale writes: This episode is dedicated in memory of my beloved mother in law, Faigy, whose neshama permeated her whole being. Her love for Hashem and Chassidus, as well as her constant work on her humanness, continues to inspire me. She would have loved this podcast. May the neshama of Faiga bas Yaakov Zimmel have a tremendous aliyah, and be a gutteh better for Klal Yisroel.
Thank you both for sponsoring today's episode.
If you are listening to this, and love Human and Holy, and want to bring more of our work into the world, I want to invite you to sponsor an episode in honor of a birthday, yartzeit, someone you love. Email us at info@humanandholy.com, or by visiting humanandholy.com/sponsor, for sponsorship opportunities.
Today's conversation is the first in a series on Tefillah. Over the next month, we are going to be exploring what it means to talk to Hashem through formal tefillah. And also just through an ongoing conversation. We are going to cover feeling worthy of talking to G-d, what to do when you feel like your prayers aren't being answered, the halacha and history of tefillah, women's personal experiences, the Chassidus behind prayer, and hopefully help you begin your own personal conversation with G-d. This Tefillah series is sponsored by the Rohr Bais Chaya Academy. RBCA is the high school for Lubavitch girls to thrive and discover their inner potential and connection to Torah and Chassidus. Our task is to bring out the best in each student with individualized attention, vibrant chassidish atmosphere, meaningful and exciting extra curricular programing, and learning that's relevant and thought provoking. If you, or your daughter, or your sister, or your niece are on the market looking for a Chabad girls high school, check out this phenomenal place.
Now, before we get to today's episode, I have a special announcement. We are launching an online Human and Holy resource center. Over the last couple of months, we have created a beautiful collection of resources to help you begin, or deepen, your own personal experience of prayer. The Human and Holy resource center will go live with the last episode of this series, so save the date for Motzei Shabbos, February 25, on humanandholy.com, for our first ever collection of tangible resources that will help you take the idea we discuss on this podcast about tefillah from your head and heart into your life. Over the next couple of weeks, I'm going to tell you a bit more about each item in our resource center, the backstory, the team that has been working on this project, and how it all came to be.
But for now, let's get back to today's episode. I know it's hard to do. For me at least. Because I'm so excited to finally share this with you. But, it helps that we kick off this Tefillah series with the most gorgeous interview with Terri Klein about the one big thing that stops a lot of us from turning to G-d. Before we even talk about the siddur, before we talk about the deeper meaning and significance of prayer, we have to talk about the hurdle that so many of us face. Feeling, for whatever reason, that we are not worthy of showing up and talking to G-d.
Today, Terri shares her own journey with prayer, and what finally made her recognize that she too was worthy of having a relationship with G-d.
[Musical interlude]
[00:05:35] Terri Klein: My name is Terri Klein. And my Hebrew name is Chana Leah. And I am – I guess, first and foremost, I'm a compassionate human being. Wife and mother of three precious children. And later on in life, some other roles evolved. Author. I started writing. Speaker. I started taking my curriculum out to the world. Coaching. And I’ve always been a student of life. Always eager to seek and learn more.
I have a zest for life. But I've also had a journey and a lot of challenges and hardships through the course of my life that began with chronic pain when I was a teenager. And resulting from that, anxiety. And so, for much of my life, I've been navigating this.
So I'm not sure which part you want me to get into. But in a nutshell, I have all of these different parts and all of these different roles. But they all come down to the same values and priorities. And I'm just grateful right now to be here with my soul's mission. Because I was in some – I was more prioritizing science and psychology, and now to be in this space of being an author, speaker, coach, a teacher, and a mentor and a guide for my Jewish capacity. Showing up in this way is so special for me right now after having studied Chassidus. I'm sure there's so much more. But it's an honor, an absolute honor, to be here. And thank you for being one of my new mentors and teachers. And for your community.
[00:07:30] TC: Thank you, Terri. It's been so wonderful to be able to connect to you through the community. And I'm really excited to have this full opportunity to be able to learn from you and to hear your experiences.
TK: I did forget to say that – I've created a curriculum called Mind Scholar. But the last few years I realized that it's mind, body and soul. So that curriculum has evolved to include some very, very important new pieces.
[00:07:57] TC: I would love to talk a little bit about that. What has been your journey from Mind Scholar to Mind, Body, Soul Scholar? What has been your journey from – you mentioned being really immersed in science and psychology, to now being really immersed in the study of your Jewish soul and wanting to give in that capacity?
[00:08:17] TK: Well, it's interesting. I've been doing a lot of reflecting on how my relationship with Hashem evolved over time. I think it would be important to explain that as it leads right into this and how I expanded from measurable things into more spiritual curriculum.
I guess we're all born into something, right? When I would journal recently and look at, "Well, how has this relationship unfolded?" And I boiled it down to five stages. I started by realizing I was born into an unconscious acceptance of Judaism. Like, you're born into a family, and this is what you're given. This is what's been handed to you. A traditional Jewish home, Jewish Hebrew day school, Shabbat, candles. What was my connection with Hashem? It was more automatic pilot. Going to school every day, and learning, and doing and enjoying, absolutely. But not feeling that real deep connection.
And then as I married and had a family of my own, my husband and I got to make choices. So it's as if the relationship was now a more conscious acceptance of Judaism. Okay, now we're consciously choosing. How are we going to bring Judaism into our home? How are we going to raise our children? It became more of a conscious connection. And it was nice, but more appealing to Hashem over the high holidays and as and when needed.
But then there was something that transformed – well, I mean, about four years ago, I realized that everything I was studying to that date. I was immersed in science. I've always been fascinated by the body, and the brain and the mind-body connection. And of course, I had to study the mind-body connection because I was living with pain for so much of my life. Physical pains, and that resulted in emotional pain. I had to study this and find ways to heal and build a toolkit.
I immersed myself in science, psychology, and Buddhism, and other philosophies of mind, and I was always seeking things. But it felt like there was a real missing piece of my puzzle. And it was about four years ago when I said, "I need to discover something more. I was seeking connection." More real connection.
At that time, I believe I was led by Hashem to Chassidus. And I really was led to some beautiful teachers, and mentors, and some rebbetzins, and beautiful people, beautiful courses. Tanya, the book, to study. And I was learning practical Torah. Nothing I had studied in the past. Although, I had been to Jewish Hebrew day school. That was memorizing, not living, and not integrating.
[00:11:21] And especially towards one woman and one organization where I was learning how to redefine prayer and my connection to Hashem. And then, at that point, I started really getting curious and open. And I was longing to build a connection, but I wasn't sure how. And then I would say that about a year ago, I probably stepped into the phase of conscious choosing, where I actually started to give myself permission to consciously choose Hashem. Because I was becoming more self-aware, G-d-aware.
When you study science and you study psychology, they are beautiful. Don't get me wrong. I still believe that all these scientifically-proven studies and everything that I've learned in psychology are assets and hugely important tools in my toolkit. But for me, I was missing the foundational element, which was, although I felt imperfect, unworthy, not good enough of building a relationship with Hashem because I started understanding Chassidus and the truth of Hashem's reality, I was able to break all the old narratives. I was able to understand that I am, in fact, as each and every person is, a carrier of Hashem's light. I am. I have a neshama. I have a soul's mission. And even though I was judging myself, I was able to now open up to this reality to get curious about how I could in fact build an intimate relationship with Hashem. And then that unfolded to what I would actually consider the fifth stage, which is this sacred and holy dance that I do with Hashem daily. And that probably started about three months ago.
So science and psychology are still essential trainings. And I teach them. And I live from them. But I cannot access them if I don't have my foundational grounding, and anchoring and connection with Hashem. So now, Hashem is my go-to, my first go-to. And then I'm able to access the other things. It's not to say that there still isn't wrestling or that it's always a perfect relationship. I understand that, in fact, from Chassidus, that it's even more intimate when I bring Hashem into the darkness, into the challenges. And there have been so many. And there currently are so many. But this is the grounding and anchoring that I love.
[00:14:12] TC: I think it's really interesting how your entrance to having a relationship with Hashem was redefining prayer. And I would love to explore that a little bit. I know a lot of us struggle to really speak to Hashem, to be in a relationship with Hashem in a way that feels real to us. In a way that doesn't feel like we're playing make-believe. But that we actually genuinely have a relationship and someone we could speak to.
I would love to hear from you what it meant to redefine prayer and how that became your entrance into having a relationship with Hashem that became the foundation for everything else that you're doing?
[00:14:52] TK: I studied with a beautiful rebbetzin. And her organization is called Jewish Girls Unite. And her practice is called GROW. And it was at a time during COVID when I was at, probably, the lowest of low. And I was walking with a dear friend and she said to me, "I think you're going to love this GROW connection circle. I'd love you to join our circle. And we meet weekly. And just, let's try."
And I remember the first class I went to, and she expressed this acronym, GROW; gratitude, recognition, oneness and want. And over the past year, I have learned how to speak the language of soul and redefine my own prayer practice from this foundation. So I was always grateful. I was always recognizing. But not in this same capacity.
When I wake up in the morning – and this is a practice that obviously evolved you know, week after week we met. We were a specific group of people who were struggling with chronic physical issues. We're people who were really in pain. And we needed to learn how to give ourselves permission to bring Hashem into our journey and to believe that we're miracle prone. That we're worthy of being channels for Hashem's blessings.
So redefining means I don't have to read every prayer in the siddur from a place of memory or rote. But I need to and want to get up in the morning and begin with Modeh Ani. I want to say Modeh Ani lefanecha melech chai vikayam shehechezarta bi nishmati. You have returned my soul to me with compassion. Abundant is Your worthiness. I feel a need to say that the moment I open my eyes because Hashem is believing in me. And to feel that, I have – we can connect to people in different ways. We can connect through words. We can connect through feelings. We connect through experiences. For me, prayer has always been important. But now, it's so sincere, genuine and heartfelt. So redefining it means I bring it into the moments of my day. It means it starts when I open my eyes. It means it's part of my cleansing with water in the morning. Please help me to cleanse and purify all of my thoughts, my speech, my action. Please help me to get rid of all excessive fear and anxiety. Please help me to become more self-aware so that I can become of greater service to others. Please help me to remain curious.
The gratitude is one piece of prayer. And recognition is another. Recognizing that Hashem is with me in the details of my day. In the details of my day means when I'm peeling carrots, when I'm doing the laundry, when I'm going to get a cortisone shot in my thumb and I say the Shema. Each and every action is about bringing Hashem into the moments. And it is really a place to belong when I have this feeling of, “I'm alone.”
My kids are all you know in their late 20s now. I'm in a bigger home. Oftentimes, more alone. And through Covid – Wow! Really lonely. But finding Hashem and the communities that Hashem has now directed me to, the people, the courses. This is the Hashgacha Pratis. Now I have Bechira. And now I have trust in the moments of my day. I'm helping to build this Menuchas Hanefesh because Hashem is leading me to all of these beautiful new vessels, and new channels and new communities, so that I can only enhance this connection.
[00:19:13] Now it's a dance. And because of your podcast, Human and Holy, I took what the phrase that I used to say, I called it my sacred and holy dance with Hashem. And I have a poem I've written on that. But now, I actually called it when I was writing in my journal, my human and holy dance.
Because in all of my humanness, in all of my vulnerability, my imperfection, my unworthiness, my discomfort, in all of my struggle, I too am reaching out to Hashem and I'm reminded of my holiness, and reminded of my potential and reminded of my power even though I feel so disempowered. So it's a dance. I call it a dance. when I speak with my client, it's like I'm dancing with them where they are. I'm being with them where they are.
When I'm with Hashem, I'm being with Hashem where I need to be. Do I know that he's always listening? And do I know that he's always responding? Now, I truly believe that this is possible. And I do believe, based on the little gifts and the little blessings that I'm receiving, that, yes, He is hearing.
And although I'm going through such a huge, huge medical challenge with one of my children right now, I got through to the secretary who was never picking up the phone. I got into the doctor who was really not accepting new patients. For me, all of these little things are Hashem saying, "I am here with you. I am connecting to you. You need me. I need you. You're relying on me. I'm relying on you."
And I have no idea where I'm supposed to be right now. I express this to you. I'm a speaker, a coach, a writer. I haven't been writing for a while. What am I doing? What am I supposed to be doing? Well, I was supposed to be healing. I was supposed to be connecting with Hashem. I was supposed to be learning new content so that I can teach, and share and be a voice for people like me, who feel like perhaps I'm not religious enough, perhaps I'm not frum enough, perhaps I'm not good enough, perhaps I'm not doing enough. But what does that really mean anyhow? My bitachon is internal. You can't see it. My kavannah, my ahavas Hashem. These are things that no one can see, but they create intimacy.
And of course, when you feel that, you want to do more. You take those steps. When I light the candles now, I light the candles. And even though I don't do certain things on Shabbat that are – I may do some things. But now it's at a slower pace and it's with prayer, and Torah study and Tehillim. Life is different.
[00:22:22] TC: Yeah. I was so moved when you said that you begin praying in the morning. And then it's like everything throughout your day is a prayer. That redefining prayer is really redefining connection with Hashem. That it's something that is present in every single moment of our day. Help me with my anxiety. Help me to be grateful. Help me with all those things that you listed. I closed my eyes while you were saying them and I just felt every single moment. And I was like what a way to just spend our life praying. Like, imagine if we spent our days praying.
And I think that there's something there, which is that when you begin with prayer, when you begin with dialogue with Hashem, even just Modeh Ani the minute you wake up, it sets the tone for the day, which is like, "Hashem, you're here. We're in a relationship. I'm going to reach out to you throughout the day. You're part of my life. You're part of my world." And I just thought that was such a powerful point.
You mentioned that you want to be a voice for those who don't feel worthy of having a relationship with Hashem, which I think is many of us. I think part of why showing up to prayer is difficult is because if I'm not going to pray perfectly, if I'm not going to daven perfectly, if I don't have the time to do it, or the energy, or I just feel inherently unworthy of really speaking to Hashem- If I pretend that we're not in a relationship, then I don't have to acknowledge how broken our relationship is. You know, how lacking it is?
So this has been a big part of your journey, discovering your worthiness of having a relationship with Hashem no matter how religious you are, no matter what your background is. What has been your journey to feeling worthy of having a relationship with Hashem? A feeling like you were allowed to show up even if you haven't arrived, which none of us have. And we're all on a journey. You mentioned Shabbos. It's like we're all on a journey of Shabbos. Have any of us arrived at Shabbos? I think if anyone really zoomed into their Shabbos experience, even if they felt that they were fully observant, we're all on a journey. So what has been your journey with feeling worthy?
[00:24:30] TK: That's a really loaded question. And there's a lot of science and psychology and different things that speak to that. But the most important thing for me lately has been building self-awareness, body awareness and curiosity. Those are the top three things.
And I have studied a particular training called IFS, which is internal family systems. And without getting into the details of it, in a nutshell what it means is we're made of these different parts. For example, my terrified part, my slightly anxious part, my pain part, my I'm not good enough part, my anything and everything, my angry part, my I want to fix this part. And realizing that all of my parts, the protector parts, all of me, is welcome. And becoming more aware so that I can communicate with myself better.
So when these parts come up, I learn how to dialogue with them. I listen to them. I help them to feel seen, heard and understood. Sometimes I ask some little questions. There's a lot of internal dialogue. And this is also about sensing in your body when certain sensations come up. You feel distress. And whenever you're in distress, you know that there's a part showing up. And there's a part you need to meet. There's a part that wants to be heard. And instead of exiling those parts, and repressing them, and numbing them, you allow them to be seen and heard.
And once I started realizing that this was possible for me, I could actually welcome them and not hate them. Far from it. I could build a connection with them and have conversations with them.
I learned more about worthiness and what my unworthiness was needing. And how she was trying to protect me? And I learned then that reaching out to Hashem would be like another conversation that I'm having with the holy part of me, with the part that, in IFS, they call self, or your divine self, or your highest self, or your G-dly self, or your divine soul, right? There are so many names for the same thing. The nefesh behema, nefesh elokis. All these different things. They speak to these different parts, but they all say the same thing.
Now I feel that even though I don't have so much time or energy sometimes to give it my all, nothing's going to stop me from saying, "Hashem, this is what I'm feeling in this moment. And I know You are here with me. And I know You are helping me to reveal that which is concealed. There is so much concealment right now. Can You please sit with me here now? Be with me now."
And I often imagine myself closing my eyes and having the warmth and the light, embracing it, and the love. It's really a reverence and an adoration I didn't know that I could feel. And you don't have to prove this to anyone. You don't have to validate it. Yes, it does encourage me and motivate me to do more. But if in a moment I do less because I'm scared of something, because the anxiety is coming up, or because the pain is too great or something, I don't shut down in unworthiness. I still reach out. Because my ahavas Hashem is a non-negotiable now. It just is what it is.
[00:28:34] TC: When you mentioned about reaching out to Hashem even when you're in that moment when you don't feel like you can show up, I'm thinking about how teshuva, returning to Hashem, requires turning to Hashem and speaking to him in the experience of struggle when we don't succeed. Like, when we don't succeed, we then turn to Hashem to return to Him in dialogue. And there's so much foundation here for believing that no matter where we are holding, Hashem wants to hear from us.
And believing that I can show up and speak to Hashem no matter where I am, no matter what I'm doing, is based on that belief that there is inherently a part of me that's absolutely unbreakable, unimpacted and worthy of speaking to Hashem. I think that's a very powerful belief. Because we make up stories about what our actions say about us. Or when we don't feel like we're operating at maximum capacity, Hashem surely doesn't want to hear from us then.
But believing that no matter where I am, no matter what I'm doing, no matter what's happening, Hashem still wants to hear from me. Like you said, it creates a relationship that's not dependent on anything. And then we want to come and be with the relationship more often because it's joyful, it's loving, it's eternal. It's always there.
[00:29:58] TK: Yeah. And teshuva, like, that's not reserved for the high holidays. Teshuva is every single day. And every morning I say Slach li ki chatati. Forgive me, for I have sinned. And in that case, it's like, we're not bad. We're broken. Rabbi YY Jacobson always says, we don't need punishment. We need connection. And teshuva just means I'm returning to that calm, grounded place of home.
In this book I'm reading now, it's called You. And it's really – I've been told an abridged version of the book Pnei Hashem. And it says that the face of G-d lives within us. And that our two essences merge. If we believe that, then every time there's a hint of unworthiness, we've got to come back to that unshakable bond, that unbreakable connection. Because we know the truth. We know why Hashem created us this way. And again, I was created this way by G-d, which means that why would I be considering myself unworthy? That's almost like saying You created me wrong. No. This is the soul vision, the soul's mission You have implanted within me. Now my duty is to uncover it. To remove all those kelipot. To get there, to that place of truth.
Of course, I am not this person who lives in this G-dly place at every moment of every day. And I don't preach it. And I've made these changes here in my 50s, you know? And so, it's never too late. It's never too hard, because no one's judging you but yourself. It's just you and Hashem. And you get to create that as long as you get rid of the external pressures and judgments.
I carried so much guilt and shame for never being able to have those perfect yom tov meals that my sisters and dear mother were able to prepare. And I've let so much go, and I've replaced them with the narrative that I'm doing the best that I can with the tools that I have. And that Hashem needs me here. Hashem is channeling me from this place. Not from the failed, not enough place.
[00:32:47] TC: Right. And also, I think something that you speak to is that there's a part of us that's whole and completely unbreakable. And then there's parts of us that are struggling or that are fragmented. And we could bring all of that to Hashem, because our neshama is whole and we are carriers of Hashem's light, as you said. When we come to Hashem, we are able to connect to him from a whole place. But also, I think this is such an important piece, is that it's not just that our neshama connecting to Hashem. We should bring all parts of ourselves. Because if it's just our neshama, then that's when I think we felt so disconnected from prayer. Because if prayer is just my neshama having a voice, then that's a moment that might not necessarily carry throughout my day. But if prayer is my neshama having a voice, and my brokenness having a voice, and my fears, and my anxiety, and my feeling of not enoughness, and my struggles, and the places where I messed up, all of it, returning to Hashem, offering all of it up to him and coming in conversation with all parts of ourselves. Because then I think we have a chance at that beautiful thing that you described that really penetrated for me, which is our day being one long prayer to G-d. And just a never-ending dialogue.
[00:34:09] TK: Yes. Yes. you're so right when you say it's not just the soul. Because that's why, for me, my Mind Scholar curriculum was no longer enough. Because the mind is a piece. The body is a piece. And the soul. And there's no one who can question the interconnection and the interweaving between them. When the mind feels broken, we pray. When the body feels broken, we pray. When the soul – well, the soul is the neshama, like you said. We know. It's never broken.
[00:34:42] TC: Yeah. It also allows me to believe that I can channel my soul in all those difficult parts of myself. That the soul is something that could penetrate all those pieces. You said when the body is broken, we pray. And when the body is broken, we pray and we ask Hashem to heal us. And when we do that, we're bringing our body and our soul to speak to Hashem together. And that, I think, creates a fusion within us where we don't see our body and soul as separate. But we begin to see the body as a voice for our soul.
TK: Right. And that's the oneness. That's the oneness, when we're in alignment, mind, body and soul. When we're bringing that feeling. Again, this bitachon, felt sense, right? This is the da'as part where we're integrating this.
And yeah, it gave me chills when you said, “an ongoing prayer.” If you've been given the gift of health in this new day, then how could anything else be more exquisite than that? Then you have a duty to shine if you've been given that gift. Yeah, it's an ongoing thing. But again, these narratives that we live with, this judgment that brings us down, shuts us down, it's so prevalent. And it's the default setting. It's not easy. It's not an easy journey. And pain screams. And pains can scream, and suffering can scream so loud that it can really really override the neshama. Remembering, placing visual cues- so important.
I have a Shaar Habitachon right beside my bed. And in the morning when I open it, I just randomly open it to a page just to read a little phrase. Just to select one and feel the energy of it. It's sometimes just the smallest thing to get that energy as a reminder. Because we go on with our busy day, with our busy schedules, and our lives. And we're inundated with the otherness, we feel disempowered with all of the things. We've become victims of our circumstances. But then when we hold that siddur, that prayer book, for a moment. Or if we just hold our hearts. Because we know in psychology about what it means to have a resource anchor. We know what it means to be grounded in our senses.
Now, not to forget, breathing is essential. And all of these things that we do, meditation, visualization. All of these ways that we calm and regulate the nervous system – if it's IFS, if it's CBT, if it's ACT, whatever the therapeutic trainings, EMDR, these are all important things. And I believe Hashem leads us to the training that we need, to the teachers, to the mentors, to the healers, to the people who cure us, to the doctors. The doctors help us to cure. But then many people like me have all of these chronic issues. And we just need to heal. We just need to feel whole instead of broken, so that our parts can come together, so we can self-lead, so that we can self-soothe, so that we can serve from a better place.
I want to now serve here. I don't know what that's going to look like. I have no idea. It's an uncertain future, but I feel like I will be led. We're all being led if we listen. But I've been listening for a long time and not hearing the voice of Hashem until probably really about a year ago. It was too staticy. It was too staticy. It was too on and off negotiable before.
[00:38:58] TC: And what would you say really created the shift where you felt you could hear more clearly?
TK: Probably being with a couple of communities, this GROW community that I work with, your Human and Holy community. And really, especially in the last few months, being challenged from a very, very personal place. And finding those blessings in the most random, random places.
I guess when you really seek, you find. And when you really open up to that bitachon. And also working with someone to understand how to move things from my head, into my heart and into my body. Because when you teach Mind Scholar, you're focusing on the mind. You're focusing on rewriting the stories.
And so, I thought I rewrote the stories. I was sure I rewrote the stories. And I did. But not from an embodied place and not from a somatic understanding. So I'm learning how to get more into my body, which is allowing me to heal. And as I heal, I become more worthy. And now, that partnership feels non-negotiable.
[00:40:18] TC: You mentioned that you experience chronic pain. What is it like to speak to Hashem, to ask Him to heal you? To reach out to Him when you're physically in so much pain, but the pain is recurring?
[00:40:32] TK: It's not easy. Especially when you so want to do more. I want to serve more. And so, sometimes I'm confused. And there were times when I said to Hashem, "You've given me these beautiful gifts. You've endowed me with these beautiful qualities. And I feel I have a gift with using them." But I am in so much distress that I can't use them and realize my potential."
Well, you know how it feels. Suffering is the gap between where you are and where you think you should be or where you really want to be. And sometimes I wonder, "Hashem where do you want me?"
But I do realize that I have had all of this that has led me here. I don't believe I would have gone down this road. I don't believe I would have ever been led to Chassidus. COVID was literally, for someone who has pain and anxiety, mild OCD. I literally collapsed at the beginning of Covid. And it was hard to breathe, to be honest with you. And I don't think that a lot of people really knew that, except my immediate family.
But eventually, I was led to courses, and to books, and to podcasts and to communities. And I was absorbing, and hearing, and listening and paying attention. And I was enjoying, and I was doing my best to heal. And I'm certainly not the after to a before. I'm totally a process. It's a process. Healing is a journey.
And I am keeping my door open. I am remaining curious as to the best ways to heal. It is hard. But life is hard. And everyone has their hard stuff. Everyone has their stuck places. Everyone has their blind spots. I'm no different than the average person who's navigating their hard stuff. But life being hard is one thing. Leaning into Hashem and saying, "You can do this with me," is another thing. It's another approach that just makes it more bearable.
[00:43:02] So it's not like I can necessarily change those things. I'm working on them. But I can change my experience of them. Experience the pain differently. I breathe into it more gently. I hold it. I give it space. I notice it. I speak to it. I validate it. That's all we want. We want to be seen and heard. Our parts want to be seen and heard. No one understands this. People are like, "What are your parts?" That's just our sub personalities. Just read up on IFS a little. Everyone should. It's so important to understand that I'm not just Terri. My identity is all of my parts. And they're not good or bad parts. They're just parts. It's neutral. The moment we let go of good-bad, right-wrong, we can understand that it's all just me and Hashem.
[00:44:09] TC: Yeah. I would say the source of that is definitely in the Tanya when the Alter Rebbe introduces this idea of having an animal soul and a G-dly soul. And having two parts of yourself and learning how to interact with both of them in a holistic way.
I think when you spoke about your experience of prayer and just being in dialogue with Hashem in relation to chronic pain, I hear how you hold the presence and the curiosity at the same time. And I think that maybe something that Tefillah in dialogue with Hashem is trying to teach us is to be able to, one, speak present with what we're experiencing and allow Hashem to validate it and to see us in our pain. And also, to be curious and open to Hashem, healing us, finding a solution, making it better, opening a door that we couldn't imagine would be opened. That kind of distills for me the essence of Tefillah.
TK: It is. Yeah.
[00:45:13] TC: And I think it clicked just hearing you speak about your relationship to prayer in such a deep way that you really experience, that I don't often hear, is very clarifying about what the essence of prayer might be.
TK: Because I can't pray to Hashem to remove my pain. But I can pray to Hashem to offer me the resources. When I get three podcasts sent to me this week on how to – they're in my downloaded files, and I open them. One every day, literally, in the past week. One with Gabor Maté. One with this other doctor. When I get those little blessings, I know where they're coming from.
[00:46:01] When I have three different people point me towards the Feldenkrais method of healing and getting to know how my body can safely move, I know that's Hashem saying, "Go learn Feldenkrais. Go learn more about the root causes of these pains that you are having."
And so, it's not black and white, like you said. It's holding the tension of the two, the pain and the healing. And having the capacity to just stay open. "Okay, Hashem, do I believe that miracles are possible?" Yes, I actually now do believe that I can be miracle prone. I can receive miracles as well. So, who knows? Maybe you wake up one day and one of these chronic issues is gone. I'm certainly going to believe. But I'm also going to believe in the healing and finding wholeness alongside the pain so that it's a coexistence, so that I can live with this, kinder.
Because before, and especially at the beginning of COVID, pain and anxiety would overtake, and I would not show up in a dignified manner. And I was yelling at my husband. And I was trying to control situations and trying to control life. And I was not in a good place. And I get that. I was not choosing. That was not my bechira. That was impulsive animal instinct.
And so, everything else was buried too deep, I couldn't find it. What a journey life is through uncovering, to removing, peeling back these layers. And I'm going to continue doing that for many, many years to come. There's a lot of unpeeling to do. And I'm not here to preach to anyone. And I don't preach to my husband. G-d bless him. I love him so much. He has given me the space to explore my Jewish roots. And I've invited him to join me in certain aspects. And he's come along. And he's enjoying it. And we can do little Shabbat morning service together now. And we can read tehillim prayers together. And it's beautiful.
And my children, I mean, G-d bless them. They're all in their late 20s. And they have their own belief systems, and narratives, and relationship with Hashem. And Hashem has given them their soul's mission. I don't interfere. But they see me. They watch me. They hear me. They've seen the shift. They're so grateful for my relationship with Hashem. They're so relieved that I have found this. But I don't preach anything. And they know that life and learning is not at all a linear cycle. That it's circular. And we heal and then we take a few steps forward and a few steps back.
We have this process of getting covered and uncovering, and getting covered and uncovering, and teshuva. And it's all possible when you learn the truth about the Torah. I'm no scholar. Even though I went to Hebrew day school and I actually got the scholarship for getting the highest Hebrew marks, I didn't use it in any beautiful way. And I never really knew why my mom sent me of all of the children, where out of the four of us, only I was sent to Hebrew day school. Now I know. Now I understand why I was supposed to learn Hebrew. For this. For this journey that I would begin in my 50s. What a blessing.
[00:50:56] TC: Wow. You said that healing is cyclical and we're constantly returning to the same things. And obviously, you moved on from certain struggles. But some we return to again and again in different ways. And I think that what you speak to is the belief that no matter where we are on our journey, where we are in our process and our relationship with Hashem, we can still consistently be in conversation with him.
That if my conversation with Hashem was dependent on where I was holding on that, if I saw it as a ladder, then we wouldn't be able to maintain a relationship. But if it was only on the good days. You know, the friends that you meet every so often and you go out to a public place, everyone gets dressed and sees each other. And then there's friends that just pajamas, they knock on your door, or they call. You're having a hard day. You'll pick up the phone. You don't only share the highlights of life, but you're willing to just show up as who you are.
TK: Yeah, be real.
[00:52:01] TC: Yeah, exactly. Even though there isn't anything wrong, I think, with friendships that are more ceremonious. But I think a lot of us do treat Tefillah as that ceremonious relationship. High holidays just when we make it shul. Times when we feel like, "Okay, today it's important. Today I'm going to get dressed. And we're going to meet finally. We're going to do it. Okay I’m opening up the Siddur. Even if it's not the Siddur. Like, today, today. Okay, yeah, we scheduled this for months. Right? We all knew that Rosh Hashanah was coming up. What about like a Tuesday afternoon when I'm overwhelmed, and I'm not dressed, and I didn't have this planned? But I can still turn to Hashem.
Terri, ending off, what would be your advice? I think that the theme really of this conversation was that constant dialogue with Hashem. What is your really practical advice for how to implement just speaking to Hashem more throughout your day so that it's not just a ceremony, but it's something that's just present throughout anything you're experiencing?
[00:53:04] TK: First of all, we have to give ourselves permission to say, "Yes, I am worthy enough of building an intimate relationship with Hashem." We have to sort of tweak those belief systems a little bit just to get open and curious. What would it feel like? And try it. I always say just put your feet in the sand in the playground. Just test it. Experiment with it. Try the Modeh Ani one morning. Try the Shema at night. Put your hand on Shaar Habitachon, or on any book, or Tehillim. Or pick it up and find a phrase that works, like, may You be my refuge, you know? Free my feet from the net.
Find those things that resonate for you. But have little reminders throughout your home. Ways to reconnect. Find a person to hold yourself accountable. Perhaps write to Hashem. I think when I was really young, I was always writing in a diary. I wrote, "Dear diary, today I this. Today I that." Eventually, it morphed into Dear G-d.
And I was wondering if perhaps I could read one of those poems that I wrote in 2012, where I actually gave myself permission to speak to G-d from a very, very personal and difficult place.
TC: I would love that.
[00:54:29] TK: When I wrote this poem, it was when I was going through a very challenging chapter with one of my children, medically speaking. And it's called Blind Faith.
[00:55:10] Dear G-d, I'm appealing to you now, as I'm not sure where to turn,
nor am I understanding what it is You want me to learn.
My son is suffering and is in pain every day.
I'm running out of strength and even questioning how to pray.
I keep re-reading my spiritual notes wondering just where I went wrong.
I'm searching for the tools that will somehow keep me strong.
Faith is a decision. I know this is true.
But sometimes I really wonder, "Dear G-d, just, where are You?"
You are never given more than you can handle
is what my dear mother would always say.
So, what's with all of the curveballs that You are presently throwing my way?
I know that you move in mysterious ways
and that Your timing may not exactly be mine.
Only I find it easier to rise to the challenges when they appear just one at a time.
I don't want to resent or to doubt You, nor do I want to beg or insist.
My intention is not to be angry, to fight or ever to resist.
I want to accept, to trust and even to explore the silver lining.
I want to find the gift and to have faith in Your timing.
Yet, I have to be honest about how I'm feeling.
So off-balanced, confused and misaligned.
My ego is loving the drama and is getting the best of my mind.
I am definitely not at peace nor am I in a state of flow.
I cannot seem to surrender.
And fear prevents me from letting go.
Dear G-d, do not let me abandon You.
Please teach me how to have blind faith.
Guide me through my distrust to a place of hope and grace.
My faith may have been shaken through this most difficult time.
But in my heart, I will always know that You are a constant companion of mine.
There to share my burden and to accept my disbelief.
There to move me forward out of the helplessness and grief.
Writing my very own prayer is a kind of meditation for me.
It allows me to express myself, giving me permission to simply be.
Thank You for listening and for hearing me out.
Forgive me if I have said too much.
And please, excuse my doubt.
I trust that you are orchestrating a very grand design.
And that Your divine agenda may not always agree with mine.
Be patient and gentle, for we too have our seasons.
Life just seems to unfold. And You have your reasons.
I pray for knowledge of Your will and the power to carry it through.
And when I require unconditional faith, please show me how to believe in You.
Do not stand by and watch me as I force square pegs into round holes.
Open my mind to see the light and help me to nurture my soul.
Remind me that this too shall pass as my eyes well up and cry.
I cannot promise that I will listen.
But please, just continue to try, in search of the silver lining.
[00:58:29] TC: That is beautiful.
TK: I did write that in 2012 when I could write. But it was more from here, than da-as. When I write now, I do feel a stronger connection, a realness in my prayer. And I look forward to the writing that will now emerge as I am a channel for Hashem in this capacity.
[00:59:03] TC: It's beautiful. A poem that's also a prayer, personal prayer to G-d. And I think that what's really powerful is that you can sense your own conversation with Hashem in that poem. Just an example of what it looks like just to talk to Him and just to express what is going on inside.
And hopefully our prayer deepens as time goes on as we deepen our relationship with Him and we feel more comfortable with Him. And that's why I do feel, like you said, that self-awareness is a part of that. The more connected I am to my experience, the more I can share with Him. The more I can confide in Him. And I could welcome Him into my experience in this world.
That was beautiful, Terri. And thank you for sharing your personal journey to finding prayer, G-d, your soul, your soul's unleashing. I am moved. It was beautiful.
[01:00:03] TK: Can I just take one moment to thank you for your beautiful Human and Holy podcast? I adore it. And I am so grateful for all that you offer to the community. And each and every interview, each and every voice that you've brought on, it's so empowering and has given me another piece to add to my puzzle and have led me to beautiful people. So, thank you for the honor of being here. And thank you for the gift of your podcast.
[01:00:30] TC: Thank you, Terri. And thanks for being such a powerful part of the community. That's how we met. And something I think about often with interviewing people, and just in general, with Human and Holy, is that we're all learning from each other. And I became connected to you because you were listening to the podcast. But of course, within a few minutes of speaking with you and becoming connected, I could see how much I had to learn. And I think that we are entering into that awareness where we all see how we are all teachers for each other. We're all trying to become more connected to our G-dly souls. We all have so much to learn from each other's journeys. And your story illuminates a piece of mine. And we're revealing G-d in this world for each other. And I think it's just really special to have had the opportunity to learn from you. So, thank you for sharing.
TK: My pleasure. Amen to that.
[END]
[Musical Interlude]
[Outro}
[01:01:26] TC: Today's episode was the first in a series on tefillah. Join us next week, on Sunday morning, with Adi Bitter, Gemara teacher at the Mayanot Seminary in Jerusalem, who will share with us about the halachic and historic background to tefillah. We’re going to talk about a woman's halachic obligation to prayer, how the Siddur came to be, and so much more. Alongside this series on tefillah, Human and Holy is launching an online resource center, where we are going to be sharing some shoppable resources for you to take the ideas that we’re learning together in this series into your life and personal experience of tefillah. Our resource center launches on Motzei Shabbos, February 25. So mark your calendars.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Human and Holy. If you enjoyed it, you know what to do. Take a quick second to leave a rating or a review. It means a lot to Human and Holy. It helps other people find the podcast, and we're trying to get Chassidus into every corner of the world. Help us with our mission. If you want to stay in touch with us, reach out at info@humanandholy.com , or you can follow us on instagram, @humanandholy. You can find all our content at humanandholy.com, along with transcripts of each episode of this new season.
Thank you so much for listening, and I hope you have a wonderful day.