It’s Not My Fault, but It Is My Responsibility || with Zisi Zirkind 

Today’s episode is sponsored by Rochel Bas Chana in honor of the Rebbe.

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Zisi Zirkind: Hi. I’m Zisi Zirkind. Officially, right now, I am a stay-at-home mom of three kids. I've taught for many years in high school. I still do a little teaching here and there to adults, which I enjoy. I enjoy learning chassidus. I enjoy learning chassidus in a way that it is practical, and very real. I don't get to do enough of that. I appreciate what you're doing, it definitely, shares that with a lot of people. What else about me? I think, that's enough about me.

Tonia Chazanow: Okay. Well, thank you so much. I'm so excited to have you here. I'm excited to learn from you and with you about what you're going to share. Can you introduce to us what you're going to be speaking about today, just the idea itself?

Zisi: Okay. The general context, chapters 26 through 31 of Tanya talk about dealing with different emotions that come up in our spiritual journey and process. In chapter 31, specifically, the Alter Rebbe is talking about – it's actually a little bit of a deeper chapter and it gets a little bit more kabbalistic. I think, people focus a little bit more on let's say, Chof Vav and Chof Zayin and this one gets a little bit left out. He talks about the difference between depression and Shiflus, or Atzvus, which is a sense of sadness and loneliness, and how depression is not channelable, if that's a word, into something that is positive. It just is stagnant and doesn't allow you to move. Versus, there is an understanding of where you're holding, which is not necessarily positive, but can be driving you to actually change. There is a way to utilize a certain sense of loneliness in our avodas Hashem, even though we usually focus on joy, how we can also sometimes use that understanding of where we are to propel us into Avodas Hashem in a positive way. Toward the end of the of the chapter, he talks about how, even though it's true that I think a lot of times, not specifically in our avodas Hashem, but in a lot of areas of life, in something where we feel we're constantly failing, which being a Jew is just a ton of obligations. It's almost impossible to be perfect at it.

It's almost impossible to be perfect at being a good Jew. That can lead us to feeling just depressed and give up on the whole situation. Toward the end of the chapter, the Alter Rebbe gives a perspective, which empowers us to be able to not be perfect Jews and still stay committed to our mission, instead of giving up on it.

Tonia: Nice.

Zisi: Yeah. I think, the idea that the Alter Rebbe says – I'll actually just go straight into reading it inside, because he says it most powerfully and then I’ll summarize a little more. Okay, so at the end when you're just talking about, “Oh, I'm such a bad person. I mess up. I'm not in touch with my godly side. I'm so invested in the physical world and I do all these negative things. Blah, blah, blah.”

The Alter Rebbe actually gives us an actual self-talk, words you can say to yourself, switch into first person. It’s true. He says. It's true that you are all these things that you just listed about yourself, possibly. I did not create myself. I did not create myself as being hidden – Hashem basically took a part of himself and he put it into a body and he hid it. It's covered up by layers and layers and layers of ego, body, all these other – those are so much more accessible to us, right? Our body is the most accessible to us, and our conscious self is so accessible to us. Then our divine soul is hidden in there somewhere. Sometimes we get to experience it briefly. Often, we don't.

We didn't create that dynamic. G-d created that dynamic. I am not in control of the fact that it is really hard to be a good Jew. I am not in control of that fact at all. That can be a stopping point for some people. You hear, “I'm not in control of this.” Okay, fine. Then, I'm done. I can't control it, so I'm done. In Judaism, we can’t stop at that point. We still know that there's still stuff we have to do. Where do we have control? How do we deal with this information that I didn't create myself and I was created very imperfect? Why did G-d create us in such a difficult… 

Tonia: Struggling.

Zisi: Struggling. Exactly. He took a portion of himself. Right. Which is so lofty and so awesome and so incredible and so much bigger than everything else. And everything else is considered nothing in front of it. He inserted this awesome, great, divine, holy thing into the serpent skin, basically. That's what it says. He hid it inside this body, this thing that’s so removed from G-d. He wouldn't do that for no reason.

G-d doesn't invest Himself in something if it doesn't have a purpose. This descent is for the sake of an ascent. We're supposed to take the body that is covering up the divine soul and using the power of the divine soul that is put inside of it. Because it’s sourced in Kelipas Nogah, it is refinable. And all of its garments. Which is its thought, speech and action. What do you do? You're able to elevate it. How? By putting them into, by investing your thoughts, speech and action into holy things. It goes on to discuss this.

At the end, it says, what we end up having the ability – I end up having the ability. I'm able to actually unite my physical mind and my speech with God's mind and speech. We become utterly united. My actions, even the most basic part of me, the most physical part of me, I'm able to refine, in doing mitzvahs.

Basically, the whole point of this is to say that I'm able to accomplish something extremely awesome, even though I was created extremely flawed. I think just in that first line, at least, this is what resonated with me, is this point of I did not create myself. What that does is it creates a degree of separation between me and the negative parts of myself, where I'm not responsible for who I am.

This is a line I heard from Rivka Marga Gestetner, she said, and it was very profound and was really powerful to me. She mentioned it at a farbrengen and she said, “It's not my fault, but it's my problem.” It's not my fault, I am this way, but it is my problem. I still have to deal with it, because I still have a mission that G-d gave me. From this viewpoint, from this  vantage point, how does something look different? Let's say there's something- I'm going to talk first in Avodas Hashem. I think, it applies even further.

Tonia: Yeah, everywhere.

Zisi: In our Avodas Hashem. There's something particular I'm struggling with, or many things I'm struggling with, but let's say there is something particular I'm struggling with. We know we have free choice. Technically, I'm able to make the choice. I think, the free choice lies not so much in the action of when you actually have the choice, but in your reaction to the last time you met with the struggle. If I think it's my fault; I struggled. How do I react? I messed up. I was not successful. I don't know. Give me an example of something that's hard.

Tonia: Why don't you share something

Zisi: Okay. I'll give an example. I find davening to be a very difficult thing and I can give an excuse and say, since becoming a mother, but it's not true. I've always struggled with this, even at times when I was really immersed in spirituality, I always had a hard time with davening. I struggled with just feeling connected during davening and actually doing it. It's hard for me to just say the words sometimes. Let's say, I don't daven. I can say, I'm a terrible – Everyone I know davens. I have the time. I could have davened. Instead, I chose to do something else. Or, I could beat myself up even now. I think in this stage of motherhood, actually, davening is difficult, because you never know when you're going to be interrupted.

I can say, “Oh, come on, you spent 10 minutes on your phone this morning. You could have davened in those 10 minutes.” You're just really bad at this. You just really don't care about that. That's one way I can speak to myself after I fail. Or I can say, it's not my fault that davening is really hard for me. This is the way that I was born into the 21st century, a really fast-paced world, where sitting and focusing and taking that time to talk to God, and Hashem is not very obvious and apparent, and the words aren't prescribed for me. All these different factors that come in and make it really difficult for me to daven, then take into consideration like I said before; oh, and maybe my baby's going to come and start pulling on me in the middle of Shemonah Esrei. There's all these really – it's really hard to daven, and it's not my fault that it's really hard to daven. And so I didn't daven today. It's not okay, but it's not like I'm a terrible person, because I didn't. That's normal. I'm not a perfect Tzadik. I'm not supposed to be able to be perfect at this. 

But it's still my problem. So what can I do? How can I make davening something that I can maybe next time, it will be a little better for me, a little easier for me?

From that viewpoint, I can say: maybe I am just going to commit to doing Boruch Sheomar, Ashrei, Yishtabach and Shemonah Esrei everyday, which I can do in seven minutes, if I'm being really speedy. Seven to 10 minutes. That is doable for me right now. It's doable for me, even if I wasn't so busy, that's something I can do, even if I'm not interested. I can force myself into doing that. From the perspective of I'm a terrible Jew, I'm never going to come to this conclusion, because this is not perfect Jew davening. This is like flawed Jew davening.

First, when I come to this realization, I'm a flawed Jew. Hashem made me this way. I'm able to then think of the solution in a practical way where I can actually be a little bit more mission-oriented, instead of it all being about me and identifying with it so deeply, so that it just stops me from actually getting anything done.

I've noticed, just in a totally not religious sense, I think our world pushes us so much to identify with things and to make everything we're doing a huge part of our identity, and I think, sometimes that's damaging. It's not always so good to be focusing so much on yourself. This example came into my head like, where is an area of my life, right now where I'm having an element of success? I started to run. Now, I am really not an athletic person. I've never identified myself as an athletic person. It's not on the list of my identities. There are other things, but this is not on that list.

When I started to couch to 5K, I was literally out of breath after a minute. I would do a minute running, two minutes walking, or whatever it is. After a minute, I'm totally out of breath. It was sad. I didn't feel like a failure, because I know I am not athletic. I am not a runner. Then when I was able to do two minutes, I celebrated those two minutes. Then when I was able to do five minutes, I celebrated those five minutes.

Then when I'm running 35 minutes straight, I’m able to celebrate that really intensely, because I got myself here, and I'm not a runner. Right now is where the danger lies, because now I can start identifying as a runner. Once I do that, then I start with all the negative self-talk, and I start to celebrate my failures, instead of my wins. I make a big deal about my failures, because I'm supposed to be able to run. What happens if I can't do the 35 minutes? I can't do it, so I'm so bad. 

When we identify something, we make a big deal about failing. We don't make a big deal about doing it well. When we create that degree of separation, we're able to make a big deal about doing it well and sort of brush aside the failing. Then we stay, we actually keep on doing it, because we like feeling good. We like it to be feeling like we're doing it well.

Tonia: So interesting, because this thought process is coming in response to how to utilize bitterness of self, in a way that propels you to growth. Immediately, when you hear that you think like, “Oh, my gosh.” It's basically about being self-critical, and seeing yourself in a low state. But that line that you shone a flashlight on, that line that ‘I have not created myself’, is the huge difference between a bitterness that's productive, and one that keeps you in that negative loop.

It's like, all these things may be true. I may be failing in all of these areas. Okay, that is not something that I myself have created. Like you said, that identity point, I think, is very powerful that my identity as a Jew, or a soul that wants to connect to G-d does not come into question, because I'm struggling to pray in the morning. What comes into question is just, what am I going to do about it? There's this struggle. There's this failure, but then, what am I going to do? There's no question of identity. 

Zisi: It doesn't define me that I feel this. Because again, it's not even in my control. There's this TED Talk Elizabeth Gilbert gives about creativity, and why is it that artists get so depressed and so stuck, and so blah? Is it because it used to be that, let's say, the Romans, the Greeks, they thought, you had a genius, then we move towards the Renaissance and modern times, and all of a sudden, I am the genius. I am the genius. I am the source.

That's so much pressure. It's so paralyzing to be under this state of pressure. If instead, I have the genius, and all I have to do is I have to show up. If you're a writer, I have to write. Will the genius come and sprinkle the fairy dust on my writing? That's not up to me. That's up to the genius. I have to show up in a way that's practical and be like, “Okay, so where in my service of G-d? Where can I just show up more?” Then G-d comes and helps me out. Actually, it helps me create this connection with him. I am doing the most awesome thing that it is possible to be doing. I am connected to this most awesome. I think, sometimes we struggle with the idea of in Chassidus, there's two different viewpoints that are given. There's a viewpoint of really using your mind to connect to G-d. Then, there's also the viewpoint or perspective, the way of working, that's the method of Aveda, that's the soldier, or the servant.

I think it's hard in the world that we live in to think of ourselves as servants of G-d, or as soldiers. Because we want to be involved in it. We want to feel we have autonomy and we're feeling something. I think, the difference between, the point maybe in the soldier, or the point in the servant is that it's not about them, it's about their mission. It's not about who they are and how great they're going to become. It's about doing what they have to do.

A soldier is doing his job and he's not upset that he's not in that position, or not in that zone, because it's not about the position. It's about, we have to win this war somehow, right? We have to win this battle somehow and whatever it takes to get there, it's not about me. I'm part of this bigger thing that's accomplishing the most amazing thing that can be accomplished. That's like, that path of avodas Hashem, is this path of where it's not about me and how good of a Jew I am, am I going to become a Tzadik? Am I going to become a Benoni? Am I going to be the best Jew ever? Am I going to be the most obviously connected to God?

I am part of this mission to turn the world into God's garden. That's an awesome thing. That's going to be so amazing. I'm privileged to be a part of that. Where is my space in that picture?

Tonia: Yeah. Well, here's the thing about being mission-driven that I'm thinking is that, on the one hand, it's about being completely given over to the mission. On the other hand, if you're so given over to the mission, you actually have to be very intimately familiar with where you're failing and where you're succeeding. You have to know your pain points, and you have to know your talents very, very well. Because the mission needs you. Who are you and what are you going to give to the mission? This idea is very much focusing on that one point of really getting to know what your failings are.

Zisi: Absolutely.

Tonia: Tremendous self awareness.

Zisi: Also knowing what you're good at.

Tonia: Totally. Yes. Yeah. That too.

Zisi: When you know it, it's not knowing it in a way of, I'm here to beat myself up, because of it. That's often what we get stuck in. Knowing whatI'm not so good at, and then I get stuck in that space of, “Oh, but I'm so bad at this, and I'm such a bad person.” Instead, it's like, “Okay, I'm bad at this. That means that either I have to work on myself to become better. Maybe there are some things I can do. Or maybe it just means that I'm supposed to be playing a different position,” because this is not my position. It's more factual than personal. Therefore, I don't get stuck in it.

Tonia: That's such a good point. I think, like you mentioned, it extends as well to what we're good at, and what our talents are. I think, in those instances, you begin, like you said, that sometimes when people really identify with their talents, in a way that's so intrinsic to who they are, but isn't something that they have. It's outside of them, to some extent. They become limited by their understanding of their talents. Because the self-awareness is not true, because it doesn't recognize the source of it, which is Hashem.

We have to hold our faults and our talents and our strengths on equal footing. Both things that we're not responsible for, but only as you said, there are our problem, we get to choose what to do about it, but – we did not choose to put them in our lives.

Zisi: Exactly. I think again, a big secret of how we don't get stuck in it, is how much I'm able to celebrate when I'm successful. When I think I am embodied, I am goodness embodied, I don't celebrate when I'm doing good. It feels just like, “Duh.”

Tonia: Oh, that’s who I am. Nice.

Zisi: Of course. That's who I am. I am a good person. I do good things. I'm a good artist. I make good, nice paintings. I write something, well, it's a certain ego. That doesn't allow us to celebrate the good that we do. Versus when we separate a little bit, we're able to really celebrate the good that we do, which is so vital in, first of all, just being a happy person who forgets about any other things. Just being a happy person, and then also, just to continue to grow, you need to celebrate the positive.

Tonia: What you're saying is that in the celebration, there's a certain humility. It's not like, “Oh, look how great I am.” It's just this humility of being able to really be aware of where you are, and to push yourself a little bit. That type of you're really celebrating the effort, as opposed to what it says about you, or what –

Zisi: Exactly. It's the discomfort we get when someone compliments us. That’s the very typical scenario. Someone compliments you, and you don't want to reject the compliment entirely, because that's also rude, but we will point out a flaw in the thing that they just complimented. “Oh, thank you so much. I messed up a little bit.” Or, “Oh, yeah. I got it from Ross for 10 bucks.” It's a lack of wanting to take ownership of this, because that's saying, “Oh, this is the best I can do, if I take ownership of this and I don't want to treat that as this is the best I can be. I need to point out the flaw.”

The compliment was the person saying, “I appreciate you. I appreciate your art.” It's not about me, the compliment. The compliment is about the other person appreciating it. If I'm in that space, where I can see the other person and not just see myself, I can accept it with grace. I would accept it with grace, instead of pointing out the flaw. Again, when I'm so connected with something, that's when I celebrate the negativity of it. Celebrate negativity - I don't know if that's possible. It’s like, highlighting, living in that more negative space, or in the space of highlighting the failure, instead of embracing the fact that that other person enjoyed what they saw.

Tonia: It's pretty subtle. I'm hoping that the subtlety here is really being conveyed, the difference between taking ownership over who you are, and taking responsibility for who you are, and recognizing that I have not created myself.

Zisi: No, for sure. I think, it's something that it's for sure subtle, and I think it's also, on the one hand, extremely intuitive, because we've all experienced how we are not in control of everything. On the other hand, extremely counterintuitive. Because of all the messaging, that we receive, and also, just the nature of who we are, which is the nature of the ego, which is to say that it is responsible.

I think, it can resonate so deeply, when you've had an experience of feeling how you were being led by something bigger than yourself. I think we all have had that experience where we were led by something bigger than ourselves. At the same time, being fed the message that you are – you have created yourself, and you’re self-made. It's a difficult balance and I think we can relate to both, we sense the truth in both of these things. Which is why it's – it's subtle. I think, it takes a certain amount of meditation and thought about it. 

When you see yourself letting go of the self and becoming happier, and you experience that, you experience the lack of constant negative, looking at yourself so closely, and constantly bringing yourself into the picture, when you're trying to do something, that shift is – I've seen this so strongly in a classroom setting. You have an educational psychology, the basics, you'll hear, you'll learn about the difference between performance goals and mastery goals.

The student that comes in with performance goals, performance is a reflection of the student; how well am I doing? Am I getting good grades on many tests? Those are students that have performance goals, versus a student that has a mastery goal, which is an actual desire to master the information, master the curriculum. A student that has performance goals – In general, having master goals makes you much more successful of a student than having performance goals. Because you're letting go of – it's not about you. You're able to make mistakes and get up from them. You're able to receive criticism and be fine with it. You're able to invest yourself in a way that's open, because it's about mastering the material, as opposed to how does it reflect on me as a student?

The student that is focusing on their performance, they get a 98, instead of a 100 and it is crushing. That can cause a massive, just stopping them and not allowing them to achieve something, versus if you're coming into master, it's not that you're feeling low about yourself. It's almost in a way, which might sound negative. It's lowering your expectations of yourself. By lowering that expectation, this is discussed earlier in Tanya, the Alter Rebbe says, you're not a Tzadik. Embrace the fact that you're not a Tzadik. Recognize that it's in our very, very subconscious thoughts that we need to be the Tzadik, and that we need to be perfect. That being a Jew comes with a certain level of perfection or being a good Jew comes with a certain level of perfection. 

Automatically, I'm thinking, I'm considering myself on a higher level than I actually am. That's where the lowliness is. It's not that I'm a bad person, or I'm full of flaws. It's that my expectations of myself are too high. We're not saying that that allows you to stop performing. It's just; don't expect perfection. That's the loneliness that pushes us. It's a recognition that like I said, before, I'm not a runner, that's okay. Then I'm able to push myself further. In that understanding of my experience, that I'm not perfect at this, that propels me.

It's not negativity about myself. It's not sadness. It's about myself. It's recognizing, I'm far from G-d. My Nefesh Elokis is so hidden inside of me, I haven't experienced it in months and months. That's the loneliness. Not the, I'm a bad person.

Tonia: Okay, so question. Is it somewhat though, an awareness of negative traits, and then recognizing the negative traits are not a reflection of who I am, but they're just given to me by G-d? The reason why we're focusing on negative traits, I just want to clarify, is because this is the specific chapter of Tanya that deals with that sense of loneliness. Recognizing that your talents come from G-d, I feel like, that's its own conversation.

Specifically, here. Isn't it the negative things, the struggles that you have, like the fact that you just don't like to pray? Being self-aware about those things, and then recognizing that it's not your fault. This is how G-d created you. Like you said, lower your expectations, and then being able to grow from that place. Part of it is becoming more aware of those challenges in your life and where you are failing consistently.

Zisi: Right. Again, so it's very easy, I think, and this is where I think the subtlety is. It's very easy. I can say, “Oh, I'm going to become – I'm going to do a good Cheshbon Hanefesh and become aware of all my failures.” It's very easy for that to just really bog you down. Not be productive. Not give you life. It just sucks all the life out of Judaism, if I'm focusing on the failure.

It's a very fine line of the failure, being aware of the other things that are harder for me, and again, like you said, just prefacing it a million times with, “This is normal. This is what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be hard.” Right. With that recognition of, “Oh, this is normal. It's supposed to be hard.” Then coming in from the other side with, but G-d created it like this for a reason. That means that I can do this hard thing, but if I'm approaching it in a positive way.

I can do this hard thing and it is really hard, and I can do this hard thing. If I think that it's not hard, then I just feel that I'm just relating to it constantly from a negative space, because it's so hard for me. I don't think it's supposed to be easy. It's supposed to just be the basics. We all have in our minds the idea of, oh, what's supposed to be just the basic things that I'm supposed to be able to do so basically?


Tonia: I find that that's why it's so helpful when people are honest about their experience as Jews, trying to serve Hashem, because in those moments when you hear someone else, just honestly and openly share when they've really internalized a sense of self that's not so focused on their self, but is aware of the fact that they're human beings, and that Hashem gave us struggles as human beings, That are not our fault.

When you hear that, it's such an invitation to be able to see yourself that way, too, to recognize like, “Oh, that struggle you have with,” we'll go with prayer, because you spoke about prayer. If you are listening to this, and you're like, “Oh, my gosh. It's just impossible for me to sit down.” I could waste a ton of time, but somehow, I don't find the seven minutes to even say Shema, or even say Shemonah Esrei, that's normal. That's hard. Now, because it's normal and it's hard, and we're all dealing with the same exact thing, then it's an empowering way to move forward.

Zisi: Right. It's like, you're putting in a vote for actually sharing our struggles with other people. Not being like, “Oh, I wasn't able to learn for three hours a day.” We're talking about the actual simple struggle. Simple, but everyday struggles.

Tonia: The reason why I think it's challenging to share it is because most of us do believe that our struggles are a reflection of our worth. It's like, I don't want to share about where I'm less worthy. 

I'd love to hear from you another example of where you've been able to really incorporate this. I mentioned how it's such a subtle concept and I think that it could really be demonstrated through example. I'd love it if you could share any other places in your life where this idea has just shifted the way you saw it and been able to show up for it.

Zisi: Okay. You asked me that and automatically, also, there's a certain part of me that goes to just negative talk with myself about, “Oh, is there anything else, in my avodas Hashem that I've been working on? Like does it even exist?” you get so busy with other things. Am I actually taking the time to actively work on something? It's the first reaction I get; a negative reaction to myself, which is not productive, or good, or positive right?

Even in right now, in shifting that and the understanding that, “Oh, yeah. I am in a stage of life, which is extremely physically demanding.” Raising young children is a very – You have to invest yourself physically and mentally and emotionally. That can be my Avodas Hashem right now, instead of in my head, the things that I'm supposed to be working on. That's just the first thing that's popping into my head.

Tonia: I love that. Yeah.

Zisi: I think, a very big certain areas, for myself, let's say with exposure to certain media forms that I feel are not necessarily so good for myself. 

Tonia: That's a good one.

Zisi: I like to read. I was an English teacher for a long time. I like good quality writing and unfortunately, in the Jewish world that – Okay, we shouldn't speak negatively. But it’s not so easy. To find really kosher quality literature. It's difficult. Yes. There were times in my life where I felt extremely guilty about certain things that I was reading and exposing myself to. What that did is just makes me feel like, “Oh, I'm a bad person. My mind is not clean for the more G-dly things. I'm bad. I'm failing at this. How can I expect myself to be growing from the positive things I'm taking in when I'm taking in things that are negative that are just counteracting that?” That's one way of talking to myself from this space.

Again, instead I can just say, it's not my fault that I like quality reading. G-d created me with this desire, with this drive. Is there a way where I can maybe sensor a little bit of what I'm taking in, so when I'm reading maybe focus a little bit more on non-fiction, or even within the fiction world, there's things that are, I know for after reading them, whether they make me feel closer to G-d, or more distant from G-d. Maybe just putting the focus a little bit more on trying to find something that I know will be more productive in my Avodas Hashem, or will enhance my service of G-d, because I do think that I've found that a good book can really put you into understanding of someone else's experience, in a way that you don't necessarily get it from just other things. Really open your mind to the fact that there are people that are different than me that think differently than me, and I can maybe utilize that when I'm interacting with other people in that way. It's serving my Avodas Hashem.

As long as I'm in the state of, I'm just so bad for wanting this, it's such a negative desire. It's such a negative thing about myself, then I'm not able to –  a lot of us also have; our relationship with social media, where we find it to be so all or nothing. Oh, I can't control myself, I just waste my time. It leaves me feeling so negative. Again, with that constant negativity surrounding, versus shifting a little bit to. 

We like to think that the world 300 years ago was much more difficult to be a good Jew, because there was oppression and all these people were scared for their lives and risking their lives to do mitzvahs. But Hashem created this world. It's really, really, really tough to stay actively engaged in your service of Hashem. There's so many things that are just coming in. Our minds are just really being shut down from the outside, in a way that we're not so in control of. Recognizing that. You know that environmental factor, I have not created that. I didn’t create the year 2022 to be the way it is. I find myself in this world. Where can I find that space? Where can I find that balance in this world as it was created? Where can I create my own little space in this environment that I was placed into?

Tonia: Nice. Oh, my gosh. That is such a great example, books, and also social media. Specifically social media, because once you start understanding for example, how the apps are specifically taking advantage of how the human brain works, and then you recognize the reason why it's challenging is not because you don’t have self control and you’re not strong-willed, or your just a couch potato. That's not why. It's because it's actually designed to take advantage of the way that you work!

Zisi: Scientifically takes advantage of my brain. Yeah. It’s such a good example.

Tonia: Once you know that, at least for me, once I began to understand that it took away so much of the shame, so much of the – then I was actually able to proactively take measures to not allow it to impede on my life. Because before, it was very much a question of identity and how much I was able to stay mindful and present, despite this terrible trait that I had, which was to open my phone constantly. Then it's like, one second. It's not a toxic trait to fall into the hamster wheel of technology. It's actually manipulative force. Now, that's a totally different question.

Zisi: You just said the word shame. That is the word over here I was looking for in my brain. It's that shame that is so debilitating when it's a question of identity. When it's a question of identity, then I feel that shame. Shame is not good. As opposed to, like you said, recognizing that there's an outside force at play, removes that shame. Then I'm able to really find my place within the created space.

Tonia: Actually, when you realize how powerless you are, in a sense, it actually gives you your power back. Because it's like, when you realize that it wasn't your fault, I think instinctively you would think well, if it's actually impossible to control yourself, because of the way that, let's say the app is designed, then oh, no. I guess, you don't have control over your life. It's like, one second. Now that I recognize how much I can just be easily manipulated, only now can I actually take action and be empowered to change the way I interact with it.

Zisi: For sure. It’s really powerful.

Tonia: Yeah. It really is. I would love if you could share a little bit about that, how specifically it is recognizing that I have not created myself, that I have not created this challenge. Why is it that specifically, I just love to hear you expound on it, why is that point specifically, what allows us to then make the choice? What allows us to then actually improve and actually serve G-d? Let's say with the books, you mentioned, recognizing that Hashem created you with this desire to read. Why is it that point specifically, that then motivates you to be able to improve in that area and actually proactively change how you're interacting with books?

Zisi: Right. I think, it really applies back in that word, shame, that you mentioned before. As long as I think I'm at fault, I'm in this really, in this space of shame. It's almost like the way our ego works, it wants to keep us from needing to change. It wants to keep us like, you're okay, you're okay as you are. One of the tools it uses for that is this feeling of shame and failure. Because when I'm in this space of shame and failure, I don't need to change. It almost puts me in this place where I can give up and that's okay to give up. Because I'm in this state of shame. I'm terrible and I’m never going to get better and I’m going to just keep on messing up, and I don't need to change when I think that I'm just going to keep on messing up.

Like you said, when you remove that power, and when you recognize that I was created this way, then you can't just fall back on the negative, yucky feelings of shame. You see like, okay, so this is what was given to me. I think, it's very strongly connected to, you can't just say, it's just this was given, what was given to me. It's entirely enmeshed with, and it was given to me for a purpose. You have to recognize purpose in the picture.

When we're speaking about G-d, G-d wouldn't just give me this divine soul in a body for no reason. The words the Alter Rebbe uses is, take a part of himself and stick it in the dumpster. That's not purposeless. He wouldn't do that for no reason. There's purpose in that. When you're removing that shame, and you're removing that, you're saying, now you don't have the excuse not to change. You don't have the excuse not to work on yourself. Because the biggest excuse not to work on yourself is the fact that I'm going to fail. I'm going to mess up anyway. Okay, so you're going to mess up anyway, that's part of the point. Part of the point does the messing up. Okay, so then I have to do it, even though I’m going to still mess up, because that's the point.

Tonia: That's part of the purpose.

Zisi: Yeah. Part of the purpose is going down to get back up and going down to get back up. It throws the ego off balance. Then, that enables me to implement some change.

Tonia: I'm thinking specifically about that point, about the ego. It's something that I'm going to sit with, actually, that idea. That idea of the ego trying to maintain its equilibrium by constantly throwing things at us like, “Oh, you are terrible.”

Zisi: It's also so counterintuitive of our idea of ego, which is in our minds like, “Oh, sense of you’re so great. Because it's really coming from that same space. It's like, “I'm so great. I don't need to work on myself. I don't need to change, because I'm good as I am.” Because I need that. I need that comfort.”

Tonia: Actually, I've heard kids say this before. A kid will do something and another kid will say like, “Oh, that's so mean.” They're like, “Yeah. I'm a mean person.” In saying, “I'm a mean person,” suddenly, you saying I mean doesn't hurt, because it's like, mean people do mean things. If it's, I'm a good person, and then I did something mean, then suddenly, I'm off balance. I need to change something. I need to apologize, repair. Suddenly, I'm in an uncomfortable space. I mean, a positively uncomfortable space, obviously where there's room for growth. We do that to ourselves, too. I'm a mean person. I’m a lazy person. I'm not a spiritual person. I'm disconnected.

Zisi: Right. It's like that. The low self-esteem that is deeply ego, like deeply feeling myself. Enjoying wallowing in it. From the outside, it might seem like, “Oh, that's not ego. That's really coming from that same space of reveling in self. The negative self is a really great space to revel in. To feel yourself very strongly. A little pity party.

Tonia: Totally. Yes. It's not your fault, but it is your problem. That sums it up.

Zisi: Really. I think, always prefacing, this is all for healthy people. There’s space where this could be utilized negatively as well, if you're not in a healthy state of mind, and you don't have a sense of self that is healthy in the first place. I think, it's dangerous. It could also have its dangers. The Tanya is speaking to a healthy person and a healthy person and how they can work on. There was Hashem and deal with this small little depression that are not clinical. If you're this, if you do have this healthy sense of self, and then for sure, it can definitely be a really – a powerful tool.

Tonia: What would be your words of advice to anyone seeking to flip the way that they narrate their personal struggles?

Zisi: Something that's been a really powerful meditation for myself has been to just think about everything that everyone else in the world gave to me was removed from me, what would I be? This is not spiritual. This is just absolutely realistic. Something I can think about on a very physical, animal soul level. If everything that anyone gave to me was removed from me, what would I be? It just leaves you, if you really think about that, just with this sense of interdependence.

When I recognize that interdependence even just on the most basic physical level, then how much more so as I go deeper and deeper into myself, and the deeper parts of myself, how reliant I am on outside forces? I think, that really allows us to go into this space of like, I am not in control of everything. Everything doesn't start with me. That's just on a mind level. Then on a practical level, I think the biggest thing really is to start celebrating the wins and being more forgiving with the failures, which is very uncomfortable. It's extremely uncomfortable space to be.  It just gets rid of that ego space. It's like, I did it. I was able to do – when I do my 15-minute, 10-minute davening, I davened today, that's awesome. For me, this is a huge struggle and I did it. Really embracing that. Then, the voice comes in and says, “Why are you celebrating this silly, little 10-minute bit of words that you said?” Then meeting that with: because it's really hard.

A lot of it really just is, a certain mindfulness and practice. Just even recognizing how I'm talking to myself,  it's so quick and subconscious that I don't always, I'm not always aware of what I'm saying to myself. First, actually listening to what I'm saying to myself. It sounds new-agey, but positive affirmations. These types of things where I'm talking to myself in an empowering way, instead of constantly, having these expectations about myself that are just not realistic and take me down.

Tonia: Totally. It's like you said, as soon as you start seeing yourself as a runner, on the fact that you ran and succeeded is nothing to write home about. Nothing to be proud of, because obviously. But if it's like, no, it's actually continuously a struggle every day, then I'm able to continuously push myself, because it will be challenging.

Zisi: That's also an area where I think a lot of people can also feel it very strongly, is just any creativity, any creative endeavor, where you really realize, it's so easy to talk to yourself negatively about your creative self, which is a power that's so much bigger than you but also so holy and powerful. That's where we really see Hashem coming out of us when we create something. Creating that space of letting go to it and showing up. Showing up, but letting go.

Tonia: Nice. Actually, I'm happy that you brought that back in, because you mentioned that at the beginning. It's so true, that creativity will humble you, because you will come and think that the day before, you could have really connected and then the next day, you can show up the same way and not succeed. It's like, on the one hand, you have to show up and on the other hand, you have to let go.

Zisi: Yeah, exactly.

Tonia: That's really good. We're showing up to serve Hashem, and we're letting go of what the perfection will look like, because it's not going to be perfect.

Zisi: Exactly. That was really well put. Putting it back together, showing up to serve G-d and letting go of how that reflects on me.

Tonia: Nice. Oh, nice. Creativity is a low stakes place to practice it.

Zisi: For me, I feel this so strongly specifically in writing, songwriting. For me, the way it has worked for me always is that – and no one believes me when I say these things, but excuse the language, I vomit it. It just comes out when it works. On the one hand, it's awesome. On the other hand, it's been such an excuse for me. I don't know. I haven't written anything for eight years. Yeah. It didn't come out of me. I'm stopping at the, it's not my fault. I'm not going into, it's my problem.

Tonia: Oh, nice.

Zisi: Why is it not coming out of me? I'm not showing up. Maybe I'm not filling myself up in a way where it will then create the exploit in, right? I get stuck on the “it's not my fault” and I’m not going into the “it's my problem.” It's really this package together, recognizing. I will say, it's an outside force, but it's just interesting.

Tonia: I like how you said, the question is not only, have you sat down to write a song and made the space for it to show up, but also, if you have sat down and made space, but you haven't been showing up for yourself in other ways to nurture your creative spirit, then what do you expect?

Zisi: Nothing is going to come out. Exactly.

Tonia: You need the fertile ground to succeed. Also, sometimes you're showing up perfectly and it still doesn’t come. Sweet.

Zisi: If you keep showing up, you have to let go. You have to be okay with that. Because at a certain point, you might stop. At a certain point, I showed up, and it wouldn’t come. I showed up well, and I've invested myself, and that's where the real push is needed to get through that, because it's very easy for me to say, “Okay, so I'm just going to stop showing up.”

Tonia: I think the main thing is, is with creativity, with serving Hashem, and with life and self-growth, it's like, the focus cannot be on the performance. If you are motivated by finishing the project, writing the book, winning a prize, put down your paintbrush and put down your pen, it's not going to work. If you are motivated by the showing up and just being there and being open and actually surrendering to the process, then you can keep doing it, because you're going to be disappointed.

Zisi: That's exactly it. That's exactly it, the performance versus the just being there and enjoying the process. Enjoying the process of becoming a more G-dly person, instead of feeling the pressure of, “I'm not a perfect Jew.”

Tonia: Like you said, the performance student, or the mastery student is such a great way to approach our Yiddishkeit. Am I approaching this from a place of performance, or am I trying to actually get closer to the idea, or to G-d?

All right, this was so beautiful. So much food for thought. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Zisi: Thank you for having me and also, triggering some thoughts. It's always good. Always good to think a lot.

[END]